ReFABricating School with Ana Fabrega

Kids are not interested in learning. They’re interested in doing, they love creating. They love using their hands. They love exploring things. And again, it’s very counterintuitive in school. They do the opposite, right? Kids are sitting down with you, and they are listening for hours to a lecture. They have little opportunity to really “engage in the content that they’re learning”, and that goes against everything we know about kids, right? Kids are very active and love to explore. So giving kids a chance at home to get really like hands on the things that they want to do.

-Ana Lorena Fabrega

Ana joins me to chat about why kids need to be creative in the classroom
(and at home!). Creativity is the name of the game in many cases. Ana is doing great work in exploring the evolution of education as things are changing so rapidly in that space worldwide right now.

Where to find Ana:

• Her YouTube page!
• Her website!

Transcription (May contain typos…)

[00:00:00] Ana: [00:00:00] kids are not interested in learning. They’re interested in doing, they love creating. They love using their hands. They love exploring things. And again, it’s very counterintuitive in school. They do the opposite, right? Kids are sitting down with you. And they were listening for hours to a lecture. They have little opportunity to really engage in the content that they’re learning, quote unquote. and that goes against everything we know about kids, right? Kids are very active kids love to explore. So giving kids a chance at home to get really like hands on the things that they want to do. [00:01:00] Mike: [00:01:09] today on the podcast, I have a very special guest, miss fab, herself on a fiber guy, who is an edge opener, former teacher. but one of the things that she does is she, teachers, I think just really a different way to approach education. And, I wanted to have her on to hear her a little bit of her story and how she can open up our minds a little bit on how we think about education for our kids. So Ana, thank you so much for being on the  Ana: [00:01:34] show. Thank you, Mike. Thank you for inviting me over. I’m excited to be here.  Mike: [00:01:38] Yeah. obviously a lot going on in the education space, given COVID and anywhere from elementary school, all the way up to higher education, there’s a lot of disruption happening as much as I hate to overuse that word. But, I know on a, you speak a lot on some of those trends that are happening, whether it’s micro schools or other things that are Busting into the scene. [00:02:00] And I, one of the things that maybe you could give your background a little bit, the listeners, cause I know you have a teaching background and then we can jump into some of the things that happening. Ana: [00:02:08] Yeah, sure. I think that’s a good idea. My add typical school experience provided a springboard to, me wanting to transform this. so yeah, I was born in Panama, but due to my father’s job, we had to relocate Kate a lot when I was a kid. So I was born here, but we moved to Colombia, Venezuela, India, Mexico, Brazil. We lived in Panama and the U S yes. so by the time I was 14, I had been to. Seven different 10 different schools in seven different countries. And in regions, those specs, I know, realize that. a lot of my wanting to change things comes from what I saw in all this different placements. and it was, it looked pretty much the same, regardless of what school, what type of school, what country would continent the learning experience K through 12 doesn’t really change. and [00:03:00] I had this love for working with kids. I really wanted to be I’m a teacher and being the education space. So I studied childhood education. Special education at NYU. And I have the opportunity to be a student teacher, five different placements there while I was studying. And that was really the first time that I got to see teaching in its purest form and seeing what, they would consider great teachers doing what they do. And it was evident, that kids were not really engaged. Kids were not really learning in terms of, they’re not retaining the information after the tests. they’re leaving school without an idea of what they want to do or what they’re good at because they have very little opportunities to explore this and to build things and create things. so I was seeing all these things, even from great teachers and I was wondering, what am I going to do when I have a classroom? So I then became a teacher and I taught in Boston for a year while my husband finished his MBA at a small private school. And I taught first and third grade there. And then I moved to [00:04:00] Panama. I taught for four years at this big American in schools and I taught third and fourth grade. And that’s when it really hit me. I don’t really know what I’m doing here cause I love teaching, but I can’t really do the things that seems valuable inside the system. I realized that schools worry too much about the specifics of what kids are learning and too little about whether kids are learning at all or the kinds of attitudes that kids hold toward learning. it was really concerning to me that the kids were just not engaged and they didn’t really want to be there. They wanted to leave school so that they could start playing sports and engaging in all this things that they wanted to do. It became evident to me that we’re asking the wrong questions, we’re making the wrong assumptions. And the best thing that I could do as a concerned teacher was to just leave and try to find alternatives and start asking those hard questions that are often overlooked. And I realized that this is something that many parents don’t consider, because they don’t really in part because people tend to [00:05:00] just do what they did when they were kids. They try to replicate their learning experience. It’s easier to play it safe. And they often think, why risk blowing up the system and not just add a little bit to it. And, this resistance to change is precisely why we have this system that we have today. That’s how we get stuck with the status quo. and I know that for you, it’s different. I’ve heard that you’ve you homeschool your kids and, and that’s great. That’s one of the trends that I am really inclined toward. and we can talk about that in a bit, but, I really feel like by, I started asking questions. I started, putting different topics out there. And people started to resonate with my content. And I think that deep inside we can all connect with this child that we were when we were in school and how we did not really enjoy learning when we were in this enclosed space. And considering that there are so many alternatives out there, it’s just a matter of being open to them and seeing what really works for your kid and what doesn’t. So that’s how I transitioned finally, last year in August. Out of a school system and I started exploring the [00:06:00] alternative education space. And I can talk a little bit about that in a bit yeah. Of what I’m doing now, but mostly I’ve been just voicing my ideas and I’m trying to talk to people who are interested in different paths and understanding why the system, not every kid is cut out for the system. so yeah, so that’s what I’m. like my background.  Mike: [00:06:20] Yeah, no, thanks you, thank you for that. you went into quite a bit of detail and, hit on quite a few things that we want to discuss. one of which being, the things that you saw, the system that were broken. I think is important and we’re seeing that even now, like the option is going away of in-person schooling, with COVID and that’s causing all of these shifts to, remote learning or virtual, or some people are opting for micro schools or they’re opting for homeschool. And one of the, maybe what, where we can start is, I’d really like to hear. what are some things, my audience is primarily dads. so there may be less involved than the moms and the education [00:07:00] side. whether that’s a good or bad thing, I don’t know, but it’s so w one of the things is that, how, w how can they think about their kid’s education, particularly like younger kids, as they’re in elementary age and. How can they foster that love of learning? I think that’s the underlying desire that most parents would have obviously. And what are the things that they can do, in the home, on the home side, or, what should they be tuning into when it comes to their younger children, as they’re getting on the, on ramp to learning and where they would start traditional education,  Ana: [00:07:33] Yeah. so one of the, one of the first things that I would say that I realized teaching is that. You can’t force kids to learn. and they, you can try, but they’re not going to learn. They’re going to forget that content. Trying to shift that ownership where they’re learning and give it to them and saying, what do you want to learn about what are you interested in? Cause I find that when you start with the kids interest and what they are enjoying at the [00:08:00] moment, then that’s where content starts to stick. And that’s when they are, they start to get sense. Cited to learn different things. so for a kid to learn, the kid has to be excited, right? The kid needs to see the relevance or needs to see the direct application to their lives of what they’re learning in school. They have little opportunity for this, but at home, parents can start that waste, tuning in, into their interest. Also kids are not interested in learning. They’re interested in doing, they love creating. They love using their hands. They love exploring things. And again, it’s very counterintuitive in school. They do the opposite, right? Kids are sitting down with you. And they were listening for hours to a lecture. They have little opportunity to really engage in the content that they’re learning, quote unquote. and that goes against everything we know about kids, right? Kids are very active kids love to explore. So giving kids a chance at home to get really like hands on the things that they want to do. and nowadays, before teachers were like the fountain of wisdom, and they had to impart all the knowledge and that’s where you would go to learn. But now the knowledge everything’s [00:09:00] available online. And so helping kids navigate the internet and seeing this through YouTube and different platforms, the things that they want to learn about and do it, in a supervised way. but really let them dig in to that. And then not only consume the information, but okay. Now what are you going to do with what you just learned? And nowadays share different videos in my YouTube about this, of all the things that kids can do and create with a computer and with the things that they have at home. And especially, in a digital age where we’re all moving toward that direction, having kids create content online, I think is a great idea. teaching them, how to create catchy content and how to distribute it, how to. Presented their ideas in compelling ways. starting to blog or thinking about products, development, or, this kind of things and design and podcast and yeah, editing. These are all things that kids are interested in from what I’ve seen and that it’s going to be really useful and it’s way to apply the things. They can start learning things on their own and applying [00:10:00] them. Through this kind of like modern making. so that’s one thing that I would definitely encourage parents to try out at home, starting with their interest and helping them navigate the web and create and produce different things. but also, especially now that kids are not in school and they’re not having those interactions with their peers, finding different, Online networks and social networks out there for kids to connect and share the things that they’re learning and the things that they’re creating. I think it’s extremely important. so that’s an opportunity that I see in this space for different platforms for kids to connect and make friends and share the different things that they’re learning online.  Mike: [00:10:38] Yeah. that’s an interesting topic. I think one that. can get, not charged, but I think opinionated about when to introduce your kids to technology, and then when to. Specifically like net, social networks. So that sort of thing, because there’s some harmful dynamics of social networks specifically. so what are some of your comments on that? if someone’s that’s great. And I’m like, I see what you’re [00:11:00] saying, but, I don’t want to expose my kids and get them sucked into technology too early, because they’re going to get sucked into social media or they’re not gonna, maybe learn as well. w what does the, what do you do say to some of that pushback?  Ana: [00:11:12] that’s an interesting question. And I actually get that asked a lot and honestly, I’m the kind of person that thinks, this is where right. We’re heading anyway. And especially now with all this remote life we’re living, kids are going to head to that direction anyways. So my, what my thinking is, why not? Be us, the teachers and the mentors to expose them to this. And, keeping in mind all the parameters and the things that they should do, then they shouldn’t do teach them about internet safety and you be the guide. And this is something that we can do. We don’t need to be a teacher. We don’t need any certification. Like this is something that any parent with knowledge of how to use a computer and the internet and has intuition, can walk their kids through this. And. I think it’s about creating a positive relationship with the internet. And with [00:12:00] content creation and be the people who show them how to do this the right way. and actually this is an area that I’m exploring myself, as I am exploring online education for kids, not remote learning online education, which is different from what we’re experiencing right now with schools going online. And by that,  Mike: [00:12:18] I like to, I’d to dig into that a little bit. What do you mean by  Ana: [00:12:21] that? Yeah. Yeah. Cause, a lot of people are confused, confusing, online learning with remote learning. So online learning typically involves a curriculum that was specifically designed for that purpose with a virtual audience in mind and the interactions and the technologies used are built for that purpose. Remote learning on the other hand. Yeah. And the way that, many of us are currently experiencing it is a reactionary experience, right? So it was an emergency. We all had to go right from one day to the other online. And kids are just trying to replicate the in schooling experience in a virtual environment, which is mostly why does it work? They’re trying to adapt the in [00:13:00] person face to face courses that they have. Historically relied on and just modify them for a virtual remote audience. And the problem about this is if kids were not engaged, sitting in a classroom, looking at a teacher, would their peers around them? of course, they’re not going to be engaged, sitting in a chair, looking at a screen for hours and seeing a teacher talk. So to me, the way that they’re, that were that we’re like doing that. It’s not the right way actually, for kids, maybe for adults, it may work better, but for kids, I think that we’re using the space incorrectly. We should be. Using the online space to interact, to share ideas, maybe the flipped classroom approach, where kids watch a video in the afternoon or learn about certain topic. And then when they joined the zoom calls or whatever it is, the platform that the teachers use, it’s a moment to share their creations and to socialize with the other kids. And, that’s what I believe that the space should be used for not to just listen passively to lectures. so that’s a big thing that I’ve noticed. And in part why it’s not [00:14:00] working. but when going back to what we were talking about, I feel like the more, and again, this is something that parents don’t need to be teachers for. They can start using the space correctly, and having their kids engage with other kids online in this platforms, but in a supervised way. Mike: [00:14:17] Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think, it’s analogous to talking about remote work versus like people that weren’t. Remote to begin with where they’re forced into it with quarantine and COVID right. they’re like, this is not work from home. Like work from home is not a remote work setup because it wasn’t designed to be remote first. You’re being thrust into just working from home or normally all your systems and everything were geared around in person interactions and in person meetings. And that causes a bunch of chaos in the workplace. I think the same thing’s happening with schooling and. And it’s being convoluted with, Oh, we can it’s remote learning and or remote learning or virtual learning doesn’t work because this is all chaos because all these kids can’t learn on zoom calls and it’s I hear you saying, he’s it’s not the same [00:15:00] thing, actually. Ana: [00:15:01] exactly. And there’s a lot of opportunity for, to create different platforms that are more engaging and it’s more conductive to learning. Zoom is not optimal for that right now, but I really believe that different things are going to start coming up that make this whole experience easier and more, more appealing to kids. Mike: [00:15:19] Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing I heard you say is, you talk about, connecting with your peers around interests, which I think is really fascinating because it’s, then there’s intrinsic motivation around a topic or a project or something of that nature. And, maybe, how can. maybe parents, help with that, or what are some of the resources that you see out there that are helping with this? I think you said that you see this as an opportunity, so there’s probably not a ton that are existing right now, but  Ana: [00:15:48] yeah. So I’m going to tell you first on something that I’m working on, and then I’ll just touch upon a few things that I’ve seen on the space. So one of the things that I started when I left teaching, I’m working on building an [00:16:00] online course for kids. and it’s focused on project based learning. So rather than transmitting information and teaching students to pass the test or, for the transcript or whatever, which is what I used to do in school. Cool. I wanted to take a step back and instead help kids. Identify questions or topics that interest them and what problems they want to solve and give them a virtual space to take those questions in whatever direction that they find and guiding them in creating and making and inventing, right? The responses and solutions that deepen their understanding or that contribute in some way to the world. We did a pilot program. And I did this with my co founder, David PRL and we called it Rite of passage, summer camp, which was based on a course, an online course that I took I’m with him on modern writing. And what we saw in a week that we did the pilot is that. The kids were really engaged. They all came in and they were at first skeptical that we were telling them [00:17:00] that they could choose the problem that they wanted to work on. They’re not really used to this in school. so they all picked really interesting problems. And I’m talking about kids ranging from eight to 12 and they all picked interesting problems. To them that they wanted to solve real problems. They all digged into the things that interest them found skills that they could match to help them come up with a prototype to solve their problems. And they did this all in a week and they presented the last day, their prototypes. And what we realized was, again, we use the space differently. So the kids were, even though they’re all zoomed out and they don’t want to know about zoom because they related, they associated with what they’re doing. Right now at home with online learning, which is busy work and just, they’re not into that, but they were really into this experience because they were not listening to me. Cause I was barely talking. They were all using their hands in the materials that they had. They were creating. Then they would go into breakout groups. They would share them, they would get feedback. They would go back. So they weren’t really. On top of their learning and they were the ones doing and creating, [00:18:00] and they learned so many things in just one week, but not in the traditional way that we would think they’re learning. and it was just really interesting to see that, and I’m working on this idea to see how can we scale this so that more kids can join this class. without losing that personalized touch, we were, it was 15 kids, but what I’m trying to say is this kind of. Let’s call it like a maker’s camp is the kind of learning opportunities that I feel like parents could be seeking for their kids right now, whether it is that they’re, they are going through a more traditional path with their schools. this could be a compliment. So I know, and I started to look to see who was doing similar things in this space. And I started to see a bunch of, apprenticeship programs for younger kids where they’re like starting to pick ACE. Specialization, which I think is great. I’ve seen some, innovation online schools that are focused on kids creating and turning kids into entrepreneurs. I’ve seen bootcamps that give kids tangible skills to unlock, possible career paths that they may want. So there [00:19:00] are many things out there it’s a matter of just going in and looking for one that is interesting for your kid and that matches your interest or whatever it is that you want to compliment. But I feel like. Finding those interest based boot camps or programs or online virtual spaces is a great way to get them excited about this kind of learning, which is a lot more personal. Yeah.  Mike: [00:19:26] Yeah, no, I think that’s really cool. I, I. I’ve seen his Rite of passage, cohort, PA course that David does. And I think I saw a little bit about what you guys are doing with the camp thing. and that sounds really interesting. And I think doing it in a, a week long, it’s not overly long, but as long enough for them to really dig in is really fascinating. And is when you said that it’s a compliment to maybe what other, if they’re involved in other school or they’re homeschooling or whatever. You said that was a compliment to that. And I’d like to hear what you think about that as [00:20:00] a, it seems to me what’s emerging here is there’s a trend to parents. taking more ownership of their children’s education towards maybe they would do more, wholesale just outsource it to the school, whether it’s a public or even a private school. And now COVID is flip that on its head. and I think it’s a net positive where parents are assuming more responsibility. do you see that as there’s going to be a roll your own type, approach where. It’s going to be somewhere in the spectrum of full, just homeschool, a homeschool curriculum too, between that. And like juditional school where somewhere in the middle where they’re like picking and choosing, maybe there’s like a hybrid type model, of these resources like yours and others that are out there where they’re tailoring it to, how the learning style is of the child or maybe the interests or the speed or whatever pace they’re going at. Ana: [00:20:52] Yeah. So I think that. Since COVID many families have started to realized how [00:21:00] well homeschooling is. Way more tailored to their kids’ needs and that many of their kids are learning a lot faster than they did in school. And they’re a lot happier and excited about learning. And of course, I’m not talking about everyone because there have been some people that did not have a positive experience with this remote learning that happened recently. But for those that were able to do it correctly, they realize this. So definitely we’re seeing more informal homeschooling. Pods and like micro schools popping up, families that have similar interests and they, get together five to 10 kids and they learn together. They either have a parent that is in charge of this, or they hire a tutor. But with this kind of flexible, schooling alternatives, you open up space to add components. For example, you can add an online course from. There’s different platforms or online schools like out school that are out there. You can also add a program. Like the one that I did just said that would be an hour and a half a day. [00:22:00] and there are different things that you can add to the schedule that. Form the education of your kid. And again, it’s, you have to be very open minded. Cause many people think, there’s, if I’m not following a curriculum and a set of standards and my kid doesn’t take a test at the end of the year, how will I know they’re not learning, but actually there’s a lot of research and we’ve seen that’s not necessarily true. and you can actually have your kid learn a whole lot and be more prepared than schools are actually preparing them by forming your own schedule with the things that I’m talking about right now. With a micro school or with a homeschooling setup. and I really think that the, if I had kids right now, I would be setting up a micro school and I would be having them learn from platforms like YouTube, where they’re doing their serve, learning, like self learning component. Then I would have them. Work on this different things with the kids that they’re in within the micro schools, I would have them join an online community where they can start sharing the things that they’re creating. I would have them join maybe like a specific class that they are interested in or [00:23:00] that they need to learn and about with one of these online programs. So you can form. The schedule of your kids, adding from all this components and different programs that are emerging in this space that I find really valuable. So I think that’s going to start, being an alternative, but also there’s some people who, as we know, the K through 12 schools also works as a daycare. Many parents have to work and they, at least for a number of hours and they can not have their kids home all day. So for those parents that cannot pull their kids out of school or that don’t want to, then they can compliment with this kind of things that I’m saying.  Mike: [00:23:33] Yeah, definitely. I think that’s also the dynamic that’s at play where it’s okay, maybe I have two, two working parents. And so you have, there’s a childcare aspect to it, but I think that’s the interesting thing that kind of has to do with covert. It’s a lot of people were talking about just the childcare aspect of schooling and it’s there’s this whole education aspect. It’s almost like they weren’t even talking. Yeah. But, Yeah, no, I th I think the, all of a sudden you put out there is, is I think very much in flux. And I think there’s going to be so [00:24:00] much change over the next, obviously this whole school year, but, being that the school year is just starting and people are making these decisions on what to do. You’re going to have a ton of, New things popping up that are going to meet that need. And I think that’s extremely exciting, Cause I think it’s a net positive overall, like even parents that are maybe keeping their kids in school, they’re seeing all of this and maybe starting to even work in some of these complimentary things and seeing, Oh, there’s, there could be a different approach to how my child learns and maybe they were experiencing some behavioral issues just because they don’t learn in that style, And they that’s causing downstream effects and. I think that’s a good net positive overall. So  Ana: [00:24:38] absolutely. I’ve been receiving a lot of emails, of parents just sharing what they’ve noticed that their kids are doing at home since COVID happened. And, since I talk a lot about this things and I send a newsletter when people reply to me saying, you’re right, I started to notice my kid is extremely creative. They’ve started to do this and this which they had. I had no idea that they were good at this. [00:25:00] I don’t know a specific thing and they’re creating this and they’re certainly excited and they’re looking forward to doing something every day that they weren’t before. And hopefully more parents start to realize that when kids are starting to behave this way and starting to crave, doing something and getting excited, then you need to really hold onto that because that means that they are learning. And that means that their time is being used productively. So finding, more trying to create more of those moments. Yeah. The kids are excited to learn about something, whether it is academic or not necessarily academic, but, focus on those things. And now has been a good time to see that, to see kids tuning into passions and interests that maybe they didn’t have time to before. Mike: [00:25:44] Yeah. I want to thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate you being on the show and really, sharing with the audit, my audience, just, what other options are out there, what you’re doing to push that envelope with the best interest of the student and the child in mind, and how they learn. so thank [00:26:00] you. And I appreciate you being  Ana: [00:26:01] on. Thank you so much, Mike. It was great being here