If you build into kids a desire to learn and a desire to create, that’s really important.Outline
1:35
What do you tell people who aren’t in tech what it is you do for a living
– Two variations on the same answer: I say I own a software company, or I say I work in software. If there’s going to be more of a conversation I’ll say that I own a software company. 2:40
So you have 37 employees, but you started as a designer. Then a blogger, than author, freelancing, then started your company. So that story has probably changed as you talk to people. What do you tell your kids?
– I have two boys, seven and four. I wonder what it is they think that I do.
– I try to talk to them about the business, or if Hillary and I are talking about the business, I won’t change what I’m saying in any way because the kids are there. I’ll try to involve them. Which is interesting when you’re talking about money and revenue. And my seven-year-old is starting to understand the numbers…and he’s like so I do this chore and get paid two dollars, and you’re at 100,000…I can see him starting to do some of that math.
– I think we just talk about owning a business but not any specifics.
– I have taught them a little bit of web design and html. Other than those interactions they don’t really know how to use a computer.
– I work from home, so I’m around a lot. They’re probably like why are you around all the time but won’t spend time with us?
– It will be interesting when they get older to hear what impression they have. They’ll have different ideas of the business over time. My youngest was six moths old when I started to focus on Convert Kit. For both of them they were super young when it was the grind-it-out time. They’re going to grow up in the time period of the company being really successful. 7:10
So your kids will grow up with different perspectives of the business…can you talk about your background in that context? Maybe talk a bit about how you talk about your kid’s perception of money.
– So for me growing up, there were six of us kids. We were all homeschooled. My dad ran a Christian book store supported by donations. There wasn’t much money. Looking back, some of the years we lived on $25,000 a year. We had everything that we needed, but…I went out to eat the first year that I went to college than my entire life. Money was always stressful. People are like, money doesn’t bring you happiness, but a lack of money brings a lot of frustration.
– My parents are very scrappy capable people…my dad built our house, my mom started a few businesses. They instilled a lot of that in us. As a kid I would go to my dad’s shop and sell woodworking projects around the neighborhood.
– We also had some friends who had a pet sitting business and they gave that over to us.
– Somewhere in high school or early college I started learning about how do you earn a living. At some point I came across Jason Fried talking about how making money is a skill just like anything else. You don’t sit down at a drum set and ask why am I not great at this? With making money everyone is like well my first business didn’t work…but making money is a skill and you have to get better at it. That’s been my thing. I feel like your story is not unique in some ways…resourcefulness is what your parents taught you.
– Yes, and carrying that through is important. I’ll be remodeling part of my house and other people will tell me that I can pay someone to do that. I’m like, no, that’s part of something I’m trying to teach. We can do that and save some money. Have you ever gotten in a debate about pricing your time?
– I often get into it about cleaning the house or lawn care. We do hire for some of it, but there’s value in doing the work. But what am I going to do with my time? Sit in front of my computer and strategize??? We have better people than me at Convert Kit to do all that now! I didn’t free up all of my time and build a successful company so that I can only work on the most optimal things. Like…I don’t like lawn care so I’ll hire that out. But other things. If I paint a room or do something else I can be like, I did that!
– The other difference that we’re trying to instill is that we’re just talking about money. Every number about my business is right there on the internet.
– The problem that I ran into was that I had no concept of a good salary. I knew hourly wages, but no concept of how to convert that into a salary. The Simple double the number, add three zeroes. So when I had the opportunity to go from freelancing and I was offered a full time position I had no idea how to negotiate a good salary. My girlfriend at the time’s dad said here’s how you do it. He gave me a little book on salary negotiation. I probably would have happily accepted a $40,000 a year salary, but thanks to him I got it up to $60,000 a year.
– So we talk about money…how much things cost. It does get interesting when the numbers are ridiculous. It brought in an extra 1.8 million for the business. I don’t even know how to talk about that. And we talk about how our finances are different than the business finances, and we make sure to bring the kids in on that. 19:21
I had the same conversation with my wife about our business, and we were talking about the revenue goals, and my seven-year-old heard it and he was like…what? You have that much money? And I was like no we don’t have that much money. You could see him calculating it in his head.
– The other thing is that the house we live in now is big, but there’s nothing over the top. But we live on five acres. We have goats and chickens, so there are very defined chores. Trying to balance how we handle that… the feeding the goats is interesting because it’s a chore, but it’s not something they’re doing to make money. It’s like you just have to do these things.
– Along those lines…on our little farm we have a guest house. It was a studio and I remodeled it to turn it into a one bedroom. We rent that out on airbnb. On one hand, it’s the most inefficient use of time. On the other hand, I can average 12-1600 a month. It’s so easy. My wife doesn’t like it, but I think it’s great.
– One thing that I do with the boys is that there are a bunch of chores that are just their chores that they don’t get paid for. But we clean the guest house together. They’ve increased what they’re able to do, and then they get paid for that. They see that that’s a family business that’s more tangible for them. 24:00
So you’ve mentioned that you were home schooled. Do you home school your kids?
– We do a hybrid model right now. There’s a private school here in our area that some friends have taught at for a long time. Now they do a two day a week school where it’s home school three days a week and in class two days a week. It’s a great use of time.
– My wife was homeschooled as well.
– This has been a good model for us because it’s homeschool with all the structure. And we’re big fans of the school. There’s maybe 80-100 kids.
– You need to make sure they get time around other kids. My parents made sure we had other activities and time around other kids. You guys travel a lot with you kids?
– We haven’t recently…right now we’re enjoying spending time at home on the farm. We do a lot of projects.
– I want to instill a mindset of making things and doing the work and learning new skills. 28:10
What else has shaped your view for how you raise your kids?
– Sometimes you think, this is who I am but then you realize no, this is how I was raised.
– We wouldn’t watch tv except for the Olympics. We would.
– We’d go to the library and get five books, and my mom would ask if it was enough to hold us over for two weeks.
– If you build in a desire to learn and create then that’s really important.
– If I think about what drives me crazy about other people’s kids…it’s a lack of consistency that I find frustrating. Like if a parent says don’t make me count to three but then there’s no consequence. That’s something I try to work on…calmly escalating consequences. Like go sit in the bathroom for one minute. Go run around the house. Do it again. As they get to five consequences for the day, that last one will be something bigger. The consequences escalate. 33:35
It sounds like that removes your emotion from it, so you can’t just snap and over react. It sounds like you’re good at creating intentional boredom. You see that in adults too…
– Yeah, they’ll say Dad I’m bored…so then we’ll talk about it but then they’ll also understand that it’s not my responsibility to entertain them. They have no shortage of Legos. It’s important to ask ok what will you come up with. Sometimes they’ll just disappear for a while, and that’s great.
– I saw this thread on twitter about someone talking about homeschooling and how there need to be more businesses around homeschooling, and someone comments that homeschool makes someone anti-social, etc. And that was a naïve comment. We had people over with kids, and my seven-year-old is the oldest and eventually he joined the adult conversation.
– My parents never talked to me differently because I was a kid, and so I was ready when I got to college at 15.
– Another thing we do with our kids is have them pay attention while we’re driving. We’d ask him how to get to school. Now the other day I was driving him to school distracted and almost took a wrong turn and he corrected me. 42:18
You had a blog post a while back about the process of growing convert kit. What advice do you have about balancing your time?
– After my second son was born, I had Convert Kit as a side project. I was selling books and courses. I had an amazing three months and decided to take some time off. We were going to do a remodel, and I decided I wanted to be the general contractor for the project. I thought it was going well, but one day I woke up with a rash on my leg…I had shingles. The doctor asked if I had an increased amount of stress in my life. I was like, yeah I’ve got two little kids, etc. etc.
– The doctor prescribed me anti virals and pain killers. I had so much to get done that I skipped the pain killers. By the end of the day I was in so much pain that I had to call them back and ask for it again.
– I basically went from being super driven to being in a bunch of pain and being on pain killers. I get a lot of self worth from what I accomplish, and if I don’t accomplish anything I feel bad about myself. And it’s hard to get anything done if you’re depressed, so it’s a vicious cycle to get going again. About six months later I decided to double down and focus on Convert Kit.
– Me and my wife talked about whether or not to focus on convert kit. She said go for it. I asked her a year later what made her so supportive in that moment. She said I was so depressed that she didn’t know what else I would do. She hoped that if I was successful in Convert Kit that maybe I would do something. So it was working, and it was counseling that got me through that.
– Life is always going to be hard, though. That’s just life. We just had a miscarriage. So a few times a month going to counseling, or getting together with friends, or making lists of things that make me happy. Were you adverse to counseling before that?
– I don’t think so, it just felt like a problem had to get significant before I went through all the work of finding a counselor.
– It’s the best product with the least amount of reviews! I know you’re part of mastermind groups…is that something you talk about there?
– Yes that’s something we talk about in my mastermind group. We’re all collectively huge advocates for counseling and coaching. Those things make a big difference.
– You have to be brave to be able to bring it up, but most people in the group can relate.
– It’s easy to share what you’ve been through, but not what you’re going through right now when it’s unresolved. Topics:
Transparency
Money
Resourcefulness
Homeschool
Depression
Counseling
Coaching
Mastermind Relevant links:
convertkit.com Transcription below (typos may be present…) [00:00:00] Nathan: [00:00:00] No, but I think if you just, if you build in a desire to learn and a desire to create, into kids, and Mike: [00:00:11] that’s really Nathan: [00:00:11] important Mike: [00:00:17] to set dad podcast, where we interview dads to discuss their journeys of intentional fatherhood while doing work, they care about and living a life of purpose. I’m your host, Mike today on the podcast, we have a very special guest Nathan Barry, who has done many things. I wouldn’t call him a serial entrepreneur, but that’s probably what most people would refer to him as. he is an author blogger and founder of convert kit. Which is an email marketing automation platform for bloggers and creators. Nathan is father of two [00:01:00] as well and built convert kit while being a father of young kids. So that’s why I wanted to have him on this podcast. so he can share, a little bit more about that journey and what it means to still, be intentional in your role as a father while you’re founding and growing a company. So welcome, Nathan. Nathan: [00:01:17] Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. Mike: [00:01:18] Yeah. That’s pleasure. Have you. So I’m a convert kit customer for Tucson dads. So very proud convert kit, customer, just getting these. So Nathan: [00:01:27] sounds good. Mike: [00:01:28] Nathan, I curious, maybe we could start out. What do you tell people that you do for a living that are people that are not in tech? Maybe you would like it at, around Thanksgiving or something like that, what do you tell people that you do for a living. Nathan: [00:01:41] Yeah, I go for either two answers. There are two variations on the same answer. I either say I own a software company, or if I’m going even more generic, I say I work in software and, I’m not actually sure. The distinction of when I. [00:02:00] I think if there’s going to be more of a conversation or someone’s actually getting to know me or something, then I’ll say I own a software company, but if it’s just a conversation, Uber or something like that, then I’ll just say, Oh, I work in software. And if people ask more than then, I’ll talk about yeah, I like to design software and. talking about my background as a user experience designer or something like that. Mike: [00:02:20] Yeah. Yeah. Just tier it based on your Nathan: [00:02:23] audience. Yeah, exactly. And they’re sophisticated. Mike: [00:02:27] Yeah. There’s their sophistication level basically. So curious though, because you’re now, so you started a software company and now they go to 40 some employees, I think, but walking back Nathan: [00:02:38] maybe seven 37. Okay. Mike: [00:02:40] And so walking back though, you started as, like you said, a designer and then you got into blogging, then you were an author and then you were, I’m sure freelancing along the way too. and then you started a software company. you had an app, you had your app, your iOS app as well, too. So that story has probably changed. I, as you’ve, as you talk to people, be curious, what [00:03:00] do you tell your kids? I know your kids are pretty young. What are their ages? Nathan: [00:03:04] Yeah, so I have two boys and they’re seven and four. yeah, sometimes I wonder what they think that I do. I try to talk to them about the business. Or I certainly, or if Hillary and I are talking about the business, then yeah. I won’t change what I’m saying in any way because the kids are there. So I’ll just, involve them in the comment precision a little bit, which is always interesting when you’re talking about money or something like that, because you think of their perspective, you’re talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in revenue for some. Part of the business. There’s something in there. my seven year old is starting to understand some of those numbers. So it’s always, it’s interesting, he’s okay. Yeah. And if I do this and we’re, do these chores and I get paid $2. Okay. And you a hundred thousand. Interesting. I can see him starting to do some of [00:04:00] that math at its head. but I think about owning a business and we haven’t gotten into specifics. I have taught them a little bit of web design and HTML. It’s very basics. That’s awesome. So it’s been fun, but we mostly, at this point, other than like those little interactions, they don’t even really know how to use a computer. We don’t really spend time on that. Yeah. I work from home, so it’s one of those things where I’m around a lot, but so they’re probably like, why are you around all the time? You don’t spend time with us more often. I’m like, give me like eight to five in order to work on the business. And then I got tons of time, but my four year old will knock on the door and be like, dad, will you do something with me? And I’m like, first 11 in the morning. And And so I’m not, it’ll be interesting maybe as they get older to hear what impression they have. Cause the other thing that I realized is, I’ve been thinking about this. They’re gonna have very different ideas of the business over [00:05:00] time because, August my youngest was six months old when I decided to focus on ConvertKit, three, three years ago or so. Mike: [00:05:10] So then your older would have been three, right? Nathan: [00:05:12] Three or four? yeah. Yeah. I get where I was four years ago. Anyway, how do you keep track of time? But yeah, four years ago that he would have been six months old. And so like for both of them, they were super young when it was really the grinded out time of will this be successful or not? And so they’re going to grow up in the. The time period of the company being really successful. And so it was just like what perspective they have of having, I’ll be really curious. Mike: [00:05:47] Yeah, no, I think that’s definitely true. it’s funny. So thinking about that, when you’re like saying, Hey dad, can you do something with me? knocking on the door. it’s like, it’s funny because you think they associate our kids associate with like screens with doing a game or doing like a show. [00:06:00] It’s dad just sits and watches a screen, like all day it’s I was just thinking about that. I was like, I wonder if my kids think that, I don’t know. Nathan: [00:06:07] So you, if you get to watch TV all day, can I watch TV all day? And it was like, I don’t watch TV either, but it looks to me like you sat in front of a computer. Mike: [00:06:16] Why don’t you want anyone to come in there and check on you? Nathan: [00:06:19] And then probably at some point they come in and I have a YouTube video or something and they’re like, see, just watches YouTube all day. Exactly. That’s fine. Mike: [00:06:29] I’m so curious. you said your kids will grow up different perspective, as the company has taken off and is now pretty successful, as opposed to like those first couple of years, I wonder if you could talk about maybe your background in that context, because, I know when you guys did that promo video for the name change and everything, you talked about your background and your, you guys didn’t have a lot of money or there’s a lot of conflict around money in your household. Nathan: [00:06:55] And Mike: [00:06:55] maybe talk a little about that. And then how has that shaped, how maybe you and Hillary talked with your kids [00:07:00] about money, especially because they’re going to grow up pretty wealthy, by a lot of standards and how are you guys going to handle that? Nathan: [00:07:07] Yeah. so for me growing up, I come from a big family. there’s six of us kids and, fourth. Okay. so I have two younger siblings, and we were all homeschooled. my dad ran a Christian bookstore and so supported by donations and, All of that. And so there just wasn’t really much money, like looking back there’s, some of the years that I went back and was able to either ask or find some numbers as to, how much my family had done. And it was usually about $25,000 a year. sometimes as much as 30, and every, we had everything that we needed, but, it was definitely like, I think I went out to eat more in like the first year that I went to college than I had, like the previous, my entire life, before [00:08:00] that. money was always that defining factor things that my parents were stressed over, fighting over, or, that kind of thing. It’s just stressful when it’s not there, everyone’s like money doesn’t, But it doesn’t bring you happiness and it’s yeah, but a lack of money can bring you a lot of fun frustration. Mike: [00:08:15] Right. Nathan: [00:08:19] And pretty early on, even through all of that, my parents are very. Scrappy capable people really into learning and that kind of thing. So I, my dad built the house that we grew up in. my mom started a few different businesses. None of them were crazy successful or anything, but they would pay some of the bills and stuff like that. And they’re just always reading and learning. And, so they instilled a lot of that in us. And so as a kid, I would go out to my dad’s sharp and, I do woodworking projects and sell them around the neighborhood and things like that. Mike: [00:08:54] would you say that was probably your first foray into entrepreneurship? Was that the woodwork? Nathan: [00:08:58] Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] And then we also had some friends who, had, I grew up in the mountains outside of Boise. and so in this big sort of a subdivision, but all the houses are spread out throughout, there’s 200 houses over. I don’t know, however, many thousand acres or something like, but some friends who lived up there had a pet sitting business and when they moved from the mountains in town, they gave that to us. And so that’s the other thing that we would do is if you’re going on vacation, we charge you 10 bucks a day to come, we’d ride our bikes over to your house and, feed the cat, walk the dog, that kind of thing. And I thought that was. You wouldn’t board them, Mike: [00:09:37] you would just sit them at their house. Like you would go and check on them, feed them or whatever. Yeah. Nathan: [00:09:41] Yeah. Okay. And I think, what did we do? It was like 10 bucks if it was once a day and 15, twice a day or so, something like that. Yeah. There was some tiered pricing in there, but somewhere in high school, I’m trying to think when this would have been [00:10:00] high school in, early college. I just started learning about, okay, how do you. Make money. How do you earn a living? I was into web design. And so I, at some point I came across Jason, freed talking about how making money is a skill, just like anything else, like playing the drums or whatever else. And you wouldn’t sit down at a drum set and be like, why am I not great at this? everyone would just make fun of, you have try working at it every day for five years. And then, If you’re not impressed with your ability is then we’ll listen to them complaining about how like you’ve put in the effort, but you don’t have the results or whatever. But with making money, everyone’s just I don’t know. My first business didn’t work. My first venture didn’t work. And so we took when and talked about, Hey, it’s just making money as a skill. You gotta practice it. But I was like, Whoa, okay. This is a chance. This is in my control. Then I’m going to get really good at making money. and so that’s been, business and, all that’s been my thing. So the second part of your question [00:11:00] was about how is it different that like how to Hillary and I like our attitudes towards money. Mike: [00:11:08] because I think that’s important. I just wanna interject because I feel like your story is not unique in some ways where you have someone that maybe what may came from a. A background that didn’t have a lot of money. And that was part of the motivation that said, Hey, I want to start this. And then that gave them the drive. And then there, then obviously, then if that’s successful, they’re faced with that kind of challenge. And then their kids don’t have that. So it’s like, how do you instill that? Primarily what I hear you say is resourcefulness is like what your parents taught you, or instilled. Nathan: [00:11:38] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And so trying to carry that through is really important. like a lot of people ask. They’ll see me, you don’t post on Instagram. Like I, then I’m remodeling a part of our house or whatever. And they’re, and the friends who are CEOs of other companies will post comments on Instagram or Facebook and be like, you can pay people to do that. Another sarcastic comments [00:12:00] like that. And it’s that’s part of what I’m trying to teach of. He know if we need to, when we get a new dishwasher, yeah, we bought the old one, but yeah, we could pay $75 more and someone else would do it. the delivery people would install the dishwasher, but like we can do that. that’s not a hard thing. and so building things and, so we do a lot of that. Mike: [00:12:20] Have you linked that? can I interrupt a second? Cause I actually just had Rob walling on the podcast. Like recently I haven’t published it yet, but I feel like he’s one that I’ve heard, say about like a pricing your time and everything and hiring. And so have you ever gotten into a debate with someone about this topic? Because I think it’s really important. I agree with you like 110%, I think like making your kids do those things that you could pay someone to do is really important. So tell me about maybe if you’ve gotten into a debate with someone over this. Nathan: [00:12:46] Oh, I often get into it, of around cleaning the house or, lawn care or things like that, which some of it we do now hire people to do. Yeah. but I just think there’s a lot of value in doing the work [00:13:00] and with the level that convert kids at, I could make a case of Oh my time, it’s worth some astronomical sum and anything less than that, if it costs me less than that, then I should be paying someone else to do it. And they shouldn’t do it. And I’m like, what am I going to do with my time? sit in front of the computer and strategize all the time. there’s nothing I convert that I’m even the best person to do anymore because there’s, we have better designers, better engineers, better project managers, like better writers, marketers, And so it’s like I get where you’re going. You know what all these people are saying, but it’s just now there’s a, I didn’t. I didn’t, free up all of my time and build a successful company so that I could only work on the most optimal things. Now, if I don’t like something, and I do it a few times, I’m like, okay, this isn’t fun anymore. I don’t like lawn care, so yeah. I’ll hire that app, Yeah. one [00:14:00] thing that I learned about myself is that I like to build new things. Rather than maintaining all their things, So if it’s like Mike: [00:14:07] repairing, wait. Yeah, this is coming from a guy that just bought a ghost town. That’s like a hundred plus years old. Nathan: [00:14:16] go ahead. But that feels like building new things, whereas yeah, but mowing the lawn every week, it’s just do whatever work I’m about to do. Some people find it very meditative or whatever, but I’m like, whatever work I’m about to do is going to be undone literally in seven days from now. Yeah. It will look like I had no impact on this seven days from now. People are like, dude, you should move your lawn. whereas even if I like paint a room or. Build a wall or whatever else. And that I can be like, I did that and it’ll last for 10 years or something. So that’s why I couldn’t get into like gardening or something. Cause the weeds would just grow the next day. Yeah. but the other difference that we’re trying to instill is just talking [00:15:00] about money and this is something it’s no surprise to anyone who has followed me online because any number you could ever want to know is just available right there on the internet. About my business. Like you can see ConvertKit’s numbers updated in real time, the same dashboard that I look at. So the public for everyone. but the problem that I ran into is I had no concept of what a good salary would be or things like that. I knew hourly wages, and then, of okay, yeah, $6 an hour, $8 an hour. That kind of thing. Oh, someone’s making 15 an hour. Okay. That’s really good, but I didn’t have any concept of how to convert that into a sale. the simple, double, the number, add three zeros to go from an hourly wage to a salary, or things like that. So when I had the opportunity to get to move from freelancing, not long out of college into, and I was offered a full time position. I had no idea how to. what would be a [00:16:00] good salary, how to negotiate any of that. and girlfriend’s dad at the time I brought it up at a conversation, some conversation and it was like, he pulled me aside and was like, okay, here’s how you do it. Here’s he gave me this short little book on salary negotiation. and I probably would have happily accepted a $40,000 a year salary as a designer then. And thanks to following what he told me to do. I started that job at 60,000 a year, which like a 50% increases is pretty good. and so there were things like that of, that I’m making sure it change of just, we talk about money, how much things cost. it does get interesting when the numbers get. Ridiculous. Cause there are times when I’m still like, okay, this is reading. Like we ran a black Friday promotion, and the amount of money, it brought in an extra 1.8 million for the business. And so then you’re like, okay, that’s I don’t even know how [00:17:00] to talk about that. that’s ridiculous. but then, we do still talk about it and we talk about how our finances are different than the business’s finances and getting into and making sure the kids are around for those conversations. Mike: [00:17:13] That was funny. Cause I had the same conversation with my wife about our business. And then I was talking to my wife about the revenue goals and in my like seven year old, heard it. And he was like, what? You have that much money? And I was like, we don’t have that Nathan: [00:17:24] money. Mike: [00:17:25] Like you could tell like it wasn’t computing in his head. But to your point, it’s like talking about that early and often I think is a good idea. Nathan: [00:17:33] Yeah. And then just taxes and other things. I have a note here from the IRS. For some reason they charged us $900 in fees, even though we overpaid, and it’s here’s, it’s it’s talking about a million dollar tax payment and it’s okay, but that’s not us. That’s the business. Yeah. and so finding that and look, hopefully they’ll just grow up with a lot of that. The other thing is that we moved into, the house we live in now is [00:18:00] it’s a 3000 square foot house. So it’s big. but it’s not, they’re no pillars out front or anything over the top like that. But then we live on five acres. That’s we have goats and chickens and so our kids have very defined chores and you gotta feed the goats when you come home from school in the afternoon. So trying to balance that, You know how it is, how we had no, we’re figuring it out as we go. Mike: [00:18:24] the feeding, the goats is interesting because it’s not, it is it’s a chore, but it’s not just something that like, he’s, they’re working towards to make money, which kind of goes back to the whole, pay everyone else to do everything you don’t want to do. And just work on the business. It’s no, this is part of just you just have to do these things and their duties and their chores. And. And if you’re doing that to it, that’s also important too. I think, Nathan: [00:18:44] it’s like, you’re part two along those lines. that I actually really like, and I disagree over this. so it’s fun to talk about, but, so on our little farm, we have a guest house it’s 500 square feet. It was like a studio and I [00:19:00] remodeled it to add. An extra wall, turn it into a one bedroom. and so we rent that out on Airbnb. Now on one hand, it is the world’s least efficient use of time because, this like compared to ConvertKit the revenue, there’s just absolutely no comparison. but on the other hand, I’m like, I can average like 1200 to. 1600 a month, renting out this little guest house. It’s basically no work for us. We just have to clean it. And and it’s so small that it’s super easy to, change up the sheets towels. I have a great time doing it. My wife is really why? she loves that. Then like when her sister I was back to visit from who lives in Thailand, then they’ll stay there for a month and which is great, but she’s just There’s no need to rent it out on Airbnb. Like to me, it’s not worth the effort. but I think it still think of it in terms of way I can clean this place in 30 minutes. And then over the weekend, I’m gonna make 250 bucks off of the person staying there, like [00:20:00] salt, and I just think it’s fun. But one thing that I do with the boys is we, there’s a bunch of chores that are just there and they don’t get paid for doing that. Feeding the goats, emptying the dishwasher, the basic, Do you live here? Do your pilot. Mike: [00:20:14] Yeah. You’re part of this family. You will do this. Yeah. Nathan: [00:20:16] Yeah. But we cleaned the guest house together, so I will go out to do it. And I always ask the boys, they want to come and sometimes I’ll be like, no, but then plenty of other times they do. And so they’ve each kind of increased what they’re able to do. like my four year old can take out the trash and then put new trash bags and, the wastebaskets and, if someone with Pat stayed there, he’ll get the little, went roller out and roll off the pillows. And, but then they get paid for that. And so I know that it was a $30 cleaning fee and so I’m paying them out of that. So I be like, actually, you guys did a quarter of the work and say, between the two of you. So here’s a few dollars each, it was their favorite way to earn money. And so then they see that’s a little family business. It’s more tangible for them. And [00:21:00] it’s more like just realistic numbers as well. Mike: [00:21:03] And it’s like value add work. Like it’s they’re actually, actually doing something and saying, Hey, there’s actual tasks I need to do. Do I need to get done? You’ve seen me do it. You can do it and then make X dollars. Nathan: [00:21:11] Yeah. Yeah. And it’s something that we all can do together. And it’s a nice break from time on the computer. Mike: [00:21:17] Yeah. That’s cool. so you mentioned that you were homeschooled. Do you guys homeschool your kids or be planning on it? Nathan: [00:21:26] Yeah. So we do a hybrid model right now. So there’s a private school here in, I was going to say Boise, it’s brilliant. It’s in one of the suburbs of foresee, that, some friends or some family members, my sister in law has taught at for a long time. and they spun off and did, now they do a two day a week school with it as well. Where it’s, homeschool three days a week. And then in class with teachers two days a week. So it ends up being a really, [00:22:00] I just think it’s an efficient use of time. Yeah. Plenty of time. Other adults telling your kids what to do, which is really that’s what my kids need. and then, and time around other kids, but then also it’s all in the two days, a week in school. Yeah. And then the rest is homeschool, which is great. Did your, Mike: [00:22:18] did your wife, was she homeschoolers yet? What was her experience with Nathan: [00:22:21] school as well? Mike: [00:22:22] Okay, so she already that’s cause we, we have, we homeschool as well and my wife was up until high school and then I was for a few years. So I think that’s pretty important. It’s if I was really passionate about it, but then I’m going to work, then she’s gonna handle the bulk of that. Not work out well. Nathan: [00:22:37] Yeah. So this has been a good model for us as, it’s homeschool with all the structure. And so you’re not choosing the curriculum or at that time. Gotcha. And we’re really big fans of the school. it helps that our sister-in-law is the head of the whole, the entire school, so obviously we believe in the model and what she’s doing there. [00:23:00] but yeah, I think there’s maybe a hundred kids. Or 80, 80, 80 to a hundred kids in the whole school and across all the, I think they have like kindergarten through 10th grade or something. Yeah. So it’s been really good. I think if that wasn’t available, then I would homeschool, but it’s a lot of work. the other thing is then you have to really work to make sure they get time in around other kids. Like looking back, I think about Oh my parents really put it in a lot of effort to make sure that we were had other activities and had time around, other kids. Because if you don’t do that, then if you’re not intentional about it, then it’s easy to lose that. Mike: [00:23:43] And you guys do a lot of traveling too, though, With your kids. So it’s and that’s part of it. I feel like, know, Nathan: [00:23:49] yeah, we haven’t done. We haven’t done as much recently. But when they were younger, we did a lot more. And we did things, we spent a month in Thailand, visiting family, but then also was like, wait, that [00:24:00] was two years ago, And so it’s what’s coming up. So we’ve been, enjoying spending time at home, on the farm, lots of projects. we put a walking path around our whole property. And so they’re just always involved in all of our projects. And I just want to instill like a mindset of making things and doing the work and learning new skills and all of that. So that’s what I want to model a lot of is there’s a simple plumbing problem or whatever, and sometimes I’m like, I’m just going to call someone because I don’t have time to deal with it right then, but then if I have time for it, then it’s one of those things where we’re going to be like, okay, I have no idea how to do this. And we’re going to shut off the water and dig in and figure out how to fix it. those kinds of things so that they grow up thinking okay, we can take on anything. Mike: [00:24:50] Yeah. what else has shaped your view and maybe your wife’s view on how you guys are raising your kids? Like maybe any books or just kind of ideologies? [00:25:00] obviously homeschool is one of those because you guys both had experience with that. But can you speak to anything else that like maybe could share the resources or just ways of thinking? you already mentioned resourcefulness, kind of creation in physical and physical space and digital space, but more physical space. Nathan: [00:25:16] But yeah, I think a lot of it comes from, there’s a lot of things where like you, where you want to say Oh yeah, this is just how I am. And they think backing no. That’s how I was raised of Reading a ton. And, like growing up, we would watch maybe a movie a week or something, but like we never watched TV, only Olympics. My parents would get out. The antenna was up on the tee, and then it was like for however long, we’d watch the Olympics. And like my older siblings would like. sneak downstairs to the basement and watch some other TV show, the Olympics, but then he’d go away for two more years. so just my parents always modeling that constant learning. And so then we would go to the library and get let’s get five [00:26:00] books. And my mom would be like, are you sure that’s enough? We’re not going to go back to the library for two weeks. And I’m like, ah, that’s a good point. instead of grabbing their book or two, because we just read all the time. I think I read Lord of the rings, start to finish five times by the time I was 11 or 12. Wow. Cause we just loved all of that. So I don’t know that there’s too many other things. but I think if you just, if you build in a desire to learn and a desire to create, into kids, then Mike: [00:26:33] that’s really Nathan: [00:26:33] important. I guess the other thing that comes to mind, because I was thinking about just now from the perspective of, okay, what drives me crazy about other people’s kids? That’s a good thing to think about, because then it’s okay, what are those? if I. imagine our little family and I like sit back and okay, if I was looking at this objectively, then what would drive me crazy about my own interactions with kids. But it’s really a lack of [00:27:00] consistency that I find frustrating. the parent who’s don’t make me count to three I’m, do this thing and I’m going to have, and then there’s no consequence or whatever else. And you’re just teaching your kids that, they don’t actually have to believe you when you say don’t do this. Mike: [00:27:15] And that way they’re consistent. Nathan: [00:27:16] and so that’s something that I really try to work on is, I’ve just saying kinda calmly escalating consequences. if they’re having, we don’t do this all the time, but if they’re having a really, a particularly rough day or rough week where they’re just. Throwing fits really easily or things like that. and then we’ll just do like a, an escalating series of consequences. So I’ll get out of the note pads that are on the counter. But they’re names that kind of a top of a column and then just do a little, like check marks for each consequence that they have. So if they, Yeah. I don’t know, say something mean or hit each other or disrespectful in [00:28:00] some way then, let’s just have a really simple consequence that, has no harm to it in any way of okay, go sit in the bathroom for one minute and we always choose the bathroom. Cause it’s probably the most boring room, the entire house, or it’s go run around the house, go run around the house at one time. Yeah. so she goes, that’s an easy consequence to escalate. Yeah. And so then they’re like, okay, go run around the house two times, you know her and they slammed the door on the way out. Okay. Three times, and it doesn’t really, it’s an easy consequence, but we’ll just Mark those things off. And then as they get to a five consequences for the day, then that fifth one, instead of being something simple will be. Something bigger of okay, now claim this thing or go, I don’t know what else. I always have trouble coming with consequences, but then it will let them know, Hey, but then if you get to 10 for the day, then we’re not going to do this thing that you actually really want to do or write [00:29:00] something like that. And then that way they can see it coming and it never goes from A bunch of little things to do then and getting totally exasperated and being like, fine. you’re not going to your friend’s house this weekend or whatever. And you’re like, and then everyone regrets that because then you’re like, actually, if you don’t go to your friend’s house, then that means that I don’t have a quiet Saturday morning. All. Mike: [00:29:27] but it also removes it removes your emotion. That’s what it sounds like. It removes, it makes you more consistent because then that reaction sometimes isn’t about necessarily their behavior, the severity of their behavior. It’s about how maybe you had a bad say you had a bad night’s sleep in you’re on edge and then they do something you just snap. It’s okay, then you’re being inconsistent. Yeah. yeah. Nathan: [00:29:45] Yeah. That’s exactly right. Mike: [00:29:46] Yeah. Yeah. Fun stuff. I would say, so one of the things that I feel like, it sounds like you guys do a good job about is the, as a whole creation piece, but I think intentional boredom sometimes is something [00:30:00] or like creating spaces for the kids to be okay with kind of being bored. So this is one thing that me and my wife feel pretty strongly about is like things that annoy us about other people’s kids or just other. Ways people raise their kids is they’re always rushing to all these different things. And then they’re always like stimulated by all this stuff where kids can’t really, they just can’t be bored and just create the, just themselves. It’s our kids will just play and they’ll play like Legos or these like wooden, like plank building things. And it’s like, when you’re around some other kids, they’re just like, they don’t like, look you in the eye. And they’re always like looking all around and they’re just like throw the toys in a pile. if they come over, if like on a play date, they’re just like the toys just piled and it’s like, what are you doing? it’s just they can’t be bored. I really think it is they just don’t know what to do. And I think that’s even going to be more so that in people too, like it’s like just in adults, And it’s like that just willingness to be like bored and just be like, okay, that’s gonna, that’s gonna result in so many like creative things or whatever, but I think it’s huge. Nathan: [00:30:59] Yeah, we talked about [00:31:00] that of just saying Hey, it’s not though say dad, I’m bored and so then we’ll talk about it, but also make sure they understand that it’s not my responsibility to entertain them. Yeah. It’s just, it’s important. It’s an important distinction. and so it’s okay, we’ll talk about what things you could do or. That kind of thing. they have no shortage of Legos to play with. cause they inherited some from, aunts and uncles and all of that so that they have plenty of air. and so there’s a lot of stuff that they’ll do. But I think that’s important to just say, okay, great. What are you going to come up with it? We try to design our environment so that, if they play outside, there’s. There’s lots of space and there’s lots of interesting things. And so sometimes they’ll just disappear and go play outside for awhile. And it’s great. Or like this last summer we got a trampoline and that’s been another thing that they’ll just disappear out onto the trampoline for awhile. And, but yeah, having those things where, it’s totally okay to be bored and it’s yeah. Oh, the other thing that you were saying that reminded me of The [00:32:00] way, like talking to adults, cause some kids can totally can do it really well. And others can’t. Yeah. I saw this thread on Twitter a couple of days ago where someone was talking about homeschooling and there needs to be more businesses around homeschooling and that kinda thing, which I totally agree with. and someone brought up in there how Homeschooling is great at all, but from what they understand, then the kids are, antisocial and, don’t build up these skills or whatever. And it’s just the funniest thing to me because it’s such a naive comment. because the more time you spend being homeschooled or around other adults, the more you just have a conversation. and the more you just interact, Are any other human. And so my seven year old yesterday, we had friends over. So he’s the oldest. And then the, there’s this four year old brother. And then there were two other kids who were four and two who were over and they all play together really well. but by the end of the evening, all the adults would sit in the living room talking and all of her, my seven year old comes up and he sits down and he [00:33:00] just wants to be a part of this conversation. And I remember that very distinctly as a kid of wanting to listen to, and mostly listened because I was pretty shy kid, but in talking to the adults, and how it’s so different. And because, I never thought it was weird or difficult or anything like that to talk to adults. And I remember this interaction I’m trying to think were. Target or Shopko or some store like that. And I remember asking my mom, do you know where something is? Probably toys of some kind. And she said, I don’t know where that is, but that gentleman there works here. Why don’t you ask him? And it took a little bit to, cause I was shy, but I was like, okay. I w you know, one of its objects was I wanted it. So I walked over to him and that was probably 10 or 11. and I go over to him and ask him, do you know where this is? And he like, gets down hands on his knees, like crutches [00:34:00] down and talks to me. He’s Hey. And he’s Oh yeah, the thing, and he like talks to me and this kid kind of baby voice and tells me where it is and all of that. And I walk away just feeling like what’s that guy. So I asked my mom cause she’s, 20 feet away. And it has observed the whole interaction. It’s you just says some people feel the need to talk to kids though. Yeah. And I just thought it was the strangest thing of like, why wouldn’t he talk to me exactly the same way that he would talk to my parents or talk to any other adult. Yeah. and cause that was my entire life growing up, but there no one ever talked to us or treated us differently. and so surprise. when I was 15, I felt totally comfortable going to college talking, all of these things because I was fairly well off socially because no one ever treated me like a kid. Mike: [00:34:55] That’s crazy. It’s and it’s funny, like, where does that naive, like thinking about [00:35:00] homeschooling, the homeschoolers being antisocial come from. I don’t understand that. It’s weird. The thing though, that’s funny, like I, me and my wife talk about this exact same thing you just talked about, that’s not even unique to homeschool. Like they’re not mutually exclusive. if you send your kids to public school or wherever, like you, one thing was, we always do is if we ever got to eat, we have the kids order for themselves. That’s a simple thing. You’re like, your mom does like asking for help. It’s they’re going to have to do this eventually. let’s just do this. But that has nothing to do with homeschool. That’s just like helping your kids have interactions with adults, treating them like adults. I think it’s like a mutual respect thing, Nathan: [00:35:30] Yeah. It’s just, I think that stuff is great. Mike: [00:35:34] So go ahead. I didn’t mean to interrupt. Nathan: [00:35:38] so what are saying is, or the thing that sparked is another thing that we do with our kids. Is have them pay attention when we’re driving, to wherever we’re going or whatever else. And so all over when he first, when he was in kindergarten and so first started going to school, then we’d ask them, Hey, where, how do we get to school? And he’d be like, I [00:36:00] don’t know, drive down some roads and it’s great. So next time just start paying attention. And then he would ask what roads and. Oh. And so now if I ask him actually the other day I was taking him to school and I don’t normally take him to school. cause normally I’m working. Hilary normally takes him and I was thinking about something and I got in the turn lane to make a left turn. And he’s this is not where we turn. I don’t know. I was like, Oh, you’re right. This is like one of the little streets. And like the actual light I need to turn that is. a quarter mile at the head. And he points that out, but now if you asked them, how do you go to school? He’d be like, okay, we’re gonna turn on the oval and then we’re going to turn right onto Eagle road and then we’re gonna drive down, and then we should turn left and you can tell you exactly the way all the way along. because we told them, you basically told them, pay attention, learn this thing. And now he always pays attention. Oh like a Fort my four year old, if we’re going somewhere, he’s dad, we’re going to turn right or left, like leaving the driveway of which way are we going? So just paying attention to those things and [00:37:00] asking those questions and having them solve it on their own. I think it’s really good. Mike: [00:37:05] Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Hey, one thing I did want to hit on, before we wrap up here is, you had a blog post a while back talking about just the process of growing convert kit. and just the struggle, some of the struggle that you went through with that, just with like depression and stuff like that. And, I think that’s an important topic. That’s part of the reason why I want to start this podcast is to have some honest conversations around that, just around how you do, how you balance that, and I think it was. Maybe David cancel or someone that I was interviewing, it says there’s no such thing as balanced. Like it’s always out of whack. and you just need to know which way you need to swing it. So okay, I’ve been working really hard. I need to swing it back to having some intentional time with family. Maybe we need to travel or something. I don’t know if like you could speak a little bit to that period. And from a standpoint of like advice to give to someone that was maybe going through the same thing that you’re going through and how they could Whether it out or, swing it back to, another end of the spectrum or just an [00:38:00] advice you could share. Cause that’s, that’s really what I’d like to get out of this as someone that they’re in that same spot and they’re listening to this as wow. That really helped, Nathan: [00:38:06] yeah. so after my second son was born so four and a half years ago, I remember when I was going on then. I just had, I had to convert kit, but it was like just a little side project and I wasn’t spending much time on it, at the time. And then I’m selling books and courses worked really hard for three months and just had an amazing three months of the year to kick off, the first quarter of the year. And then I was like, I was going to take a step back because August my second son was going to be born. We had bought a house and we’re going to start remodeling it. And I decided. Yeah, I want it to be the general contractor on the remodel. So I wasn’t going to do the majority of the work, but I was going to be involved in the whole process, hire all the subs, all of that. and through this process, it went really well at first. And then it got harder and harder, but then at one point I woke up one day and realized, like I had [00:39:00] this rash down my leg and I was like, that’s weird. And I ignored it. And I was asking Hillary, did we change laundry detergent? Did we, I don’t know if there’s something going on. Yeah. And, like it kept spreading and I asked my brother about it, cause he’s a physician’s assistant. So I just texted him and was like, Hey, I have this rational. I like, what, where do you go figuring out? And he goes, Oh, does it follow? He texted back. Does it follow a dermatological distribution? And I was like, what does that Google it? And the gist of what it means is does it follow the pattern that your nerves follow in your body? And I was like, yeah, it does. It’s like you shingles. I go to the doctor. and so like I go into the doctor and they’re like, yeah, sure. sure enough, you have shingles. but then they were asking, is anything going on? That would cause an increased amount of stress in your life. And so I described my life. And when I said yeah, I have a two week old baby that just stopped sleeping. Like first two weeks were super easy. And then after that, like both kids got sick and they were [00:40:00] taking turns like each one would they need sleep for a couple, but they’d alternate. So that one would wake up every hour basically. And I was like, all right, I’m going to try to, I don’t know, be a hero dad and take on this whole thing. And like just totally got stressed out and, got really sick. And leaving the doctor’s office. They’re like, okay, we’ll prescribe you these antivirals. And then, and also painkillers, it was, I had so much to get done. Then I was like, take the anti-virals for sure. That sounds great. Skip the painkillers. Yeah. Doesn’t hurt that much. And they’re like, you sure? And I was like, yeah, I don’t like the way that the, serious narcotics make me feel, I don’t like my head not being clear, that kind of thing. And so they’re like, okay, That’s fine. By the end of the day, I was in so much pain that I called them back and I was like, okay, I’ll actually take the painkillers now. And, can you call in that prescription? And they’re like, Oh, we already did. We called it in the moment you left? We just had, yeah. We’re like deciding, [00:41:00] like we were just, yeah. casually taking bets as to how long it would be before you call them back. So that was an interesting experience because I basically went from being, I don’t know, one of the most driven people I’d ever met, to then being in a bunch of pain, taking painkillers. I learned something about myself that I get a lot of my self worth from what I accomplish. And so if the less I accomplished the worst, I feel about myself, which is really, if you’re feeling apathetic and depressed, it’s really hard to accomplish much of anything. So it’s like this vicious cycle that just continues. And so actually, about six months later was when I decided to double down and focus on a convert yet. And like I was going and doing work and stuff like that, but not really getting much done. And I remember later, so I was talking to my wife about, should I shut [00:42:00] down the other business and double down and focus on ConvertKit and we had this whole discussion. She said, yep, absolutely. You should. that sounds great. I’ll support you a hundred percent. Yeah. Cause we were like, what if all of this fails? And she was like, great, we’ll sell our house, move in with my parents, it’ll be fine. And I was like, no worst case I’ll get a job. but she was totally supportive. but about a year later, we were talking about that and I brought it up again. And by this point, ConvertKit has gone from like a thousand dollars a month to a hundred thousand or. 300,000 a month. It’s just been wildly successful. And I remember asking her like, what made you so supportive then? And she just said, I’ve always been supportive of your ventures, but you were so depressed and not, and like apathetic that I didn’t know what else you would do. And I was hoping that in supporting you in this, that it would go decently well, and you would do something because I had basically gotten to the point. Where the blog would make 10 grand a month or something without me really doing much of anything. and so focusing on, [00:43:00] ConvertKit got me out of that. It will two things going to counseling, right? that was probably the actual turning point and having, convert it to work on it and grow, got me through that. But I think it’s one of those things that, life is going to be continually hard. there’s things even last week that came up, like when my wife and I are trying to have another baby and at 10 weeks along, we went into an appointment and found out that there was no heartbeat anymore, man. And so sorry, it’s just, yeah, like that stuff is just, that’s it’s gonna keep happening and it’s. crushing when it happens, but then going through and having some of those systems of okay, for sure, once a month, if not two or three times a month going to counseling and then having those groups of friends to rely on. and then just even having those things, I haven’t gotten them out in a while, but I have the list of okay, what makes a good day? What are the [00:44:00] things that. Rejuvenate me and, make for a good day. So that I’m like, if I’m feeling a couple of days in a row, like I don’t have energy and, lead to us feeling depressed, then it’s okay, I’m going to grab my laptop. I’m going to go to my favorite coffee shop, order a which I like, and I’m going to sit there and have these things that I’m going to work on and work on. Just something fun or, I’m going to skip. an afternoon of work and it said, go out to the shop and build something. And so just having those things that, it’s almost like creating those systems and tracking them about yourself. Yeah. And saying, what are the things that energize you me and give me life and help me get to do that. And then I can’t say it enough of counseling. It’s just so important. To go through that. Mike: [00:44:48] Why? Thanks for sharing all that. why were you adverse to counseling or posed to counseling before that? did it require that you got to that point or like what could you say to someone that’s add, I need counseling. That’s great. And then you obviously [00:45:00] need counseling. I don’t need it. I think it’s a common thing on some level, what would you say to someone like that? Nathan: [00:45:06] Yeah. I don’t think I was adverse to it. It was just that, you gotta it feel, or it felt like it, problem had to get fairly significant before it was like, okay, I’m going to go to all the work to go find a counselor. if I have a favorite product that I love, I might tell people like, Oh, I dunno, this computer is great. Or these AirPods, or I don’t know what else. people talk about them, but people don’t often go around raving about Oh man, My counselor’s the best you should totally go to my counselor. Cause they’re really helpful. And yeah, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s a, probably the most valuable product with the least, public reviews. If you think about it. Yeah. Let’s get points. And more and more people are talking about it, which I think is great. But really it came down to telling, one of my really good friends what was going on. And she was just like, Hey, you gotta, why don’t you just [00:46:00] try going to counseling? But the person that I’m going to is great, but it took opening up to get to that point where someone said, Hey, just. Give it a shot. Mike: [00:46:09] Yeah. So do you, I know you’re a part of like mastermind groups in your industry or people tangential to your industry. is that something that you guys discussed there that were those guys supportive of it? Did you then share kind of your victory, so to speak, overcoming some of those things through counseling? Nathan: [00:46:24] Yeah. the mastermind group that I’m part of, we do talk about those things and I think as we’ve gotten to know each other, Over the years now, it’s been seven, six, seven years with the same group of people. yeah, which I’m very grateful for. And it’s interesting because all of us collectively are just huge advocates for counseling and coaching, So that’s the one thing that I’m getting now is like hiring a coach to work with on a regular basis. And largely because someone else in the group is you gotta. You got to work with a coach and they’re talking and sharing their examples. So those things make a [00:47:00] big difference since the examples that someone sets that I think matter. but it, it takes a level of, so you’re in a mastermind group like that, and it starts because Hey, a few of us meet in a conference and we’re all trying to build our businesses. I take some time, but also a lot of effort to have that level of vulnerability to say, Hey, this is what. Is actually going on, I’m dealing with depression, I’m dealing with suicide tendencies or, these things, cause it, everyone would be eager to help you and talk through it and all that, but it takes you being brave on that level to bring it up. And then you’ll find out that like someone else in the group is feeling the same way or, things that, but it takes someone to really bring it to a different and different level. Mike: [00:47:45] Cause most of that is like on your view of what you think their reaction is going to be. Like you find out afterwards, it’s like, they don’t really look down on you or anything because of that, it’s Hey, actually just go with that too. Or yeah, we could point you to this person. It’s Oh, that was just me putting that on [00:48:00] you. What you thought where you’re going to think of me when I share it’s a little confusing, but Nathan: [00:48:04] yeah, one, another thing to keep in mind is that it’s really easy to share. I went through this. This is what I learned. It’s a nice little bow at the end, and I don’t deal with this anymore, but, and so often people in our communities have, a blogger, podcaster, et cetera. that’s, our whole job is to learn something tied up in a nice little bow and teach it or share it with you. And so that makes it especially hard to be like, this is what I’m going through. I don’t have any of the answers. And. Yeah, that’s just where we’re at, and so then you’re like, wait, where’s the, where are the takeaways? Where’s the nice ending to the Baupost. And it’s no, it’s just life. it’s just where you’re at. And so being willing to share that and share the journey, not just the solution or the conclusion, I think matters a lot. If you want to get help and support from others. Mike: [00:48:56] Yeah. That’s a good way to end it. I [00:49:00] think that’s awesome. thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, mate. I really appreciate it. Nathan: [00:49:05] Yeah, Mike: [00:49:06] best of luck convert kit. So convert kit.com is where you can find that amazing tool if you’re a blogger or creator, as a spoken as a user and happily to pay, to use convert kit, I can’t recommend it enough. so check out Nathan, also have the, everything linked up and contact stuff in the show notes. Thanks, David. Nathan: [00:49:26] Thanks. Mike: [00:49:32] you can find out more about us and sign up to receive updates at dot com. If you liked what you heard or just want to say hi, Nathan: [00:49:40] you can shoot me an email Mike: [00:49:41] at Mike at dot com. Please leave a review on iTunes. If you like the show, it helps us to get the word out to the most people possible. The show is made possible through the support of ECE group international. Building software teams since 1999. [00:50:00]
