Startup Burnout with Ryan Vaughn

In other disciplines, at some point you have someone working with you to take you to the next level. Every single professional athlete has a coach because they reached the limit of what they can do on their own.

~ Ryan Vaughn

If one of your employees or team members came to you and said they were feeling overwhelmed and overworked, needing a break, what would you do? Like any great leader, you would listen to what they were going through and likely give them the time they needed to sort things out and get back on track mentally. The issue as leaders is that we rarely do this for ourselves, and we should. Most leaders are burnt out on some level, and few invest in themselves in a way that gets them back to full speed. Today’s guest, Ryan Vaughn, talks about the burnout he experienced in his startup (VNN) and how he came to grips with it. He now helps founders that are dealing with similar issues in their own company.

Where to find Ryan:

• Twitter https://twitter.com/RyanHVaughn 
• Blog http://ryanhvaughn.com/
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanhvaughn/

Transcription below (May contain typos…):

Ryan: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] I was swimming in the water to such a degree that I didn’t realize that I was in the water. Right. I just, I didn’t realize that I was, I was. Playing such a role that it, that I actually was, I felt like this was just what you had to do.  Mike: [00:00:13] What would you do if one of your employees or one of your team members came to you and said they were stressed out, they were feeling overwhelmed. They felt like that was inhibiting their ability to do their job. Well, if you’re actually a good leader, you would first listen to what they’re going through and, and what that means for them. But then second, you would probably be pretty gracious with letting them have some time off to sort through some of the things so that they can come back to their a hundred percent capacity or potential.  And oftentimes as leaders, we see this with our direct reports or people in our team. But we don’t extend that same grace to ourselves. We don’t allow ourselves [00:01:00] to. Heal or to address those personal issues that were maybe experiencing when it comes to feeling overwhelmed or burnout. Um, as some might call it.  Well, that’s exactly what I hit on today with Ryan Vaughn and the conversation we had about his startup and, and the journey over almost a decade, uh, of, you know, building a company and then dealing with burnout and trying to sort that out and. And now he helps founders do that and it helps founders, you know, sort out.  You know, levels of burnout and how to recover and return with their best, um, efforts for their business. So let’s happen to interview with ryan   all right today on the podcast. I have Ryan Vaughn. Who’s the founder of varsity news network. He is a recovering founder, I think is maybe the term that he would use, but, um, very successful startup here in grand Rapids, Michigan. He’s also a father. Um, welcome to the show, Ryan.  Ryan: [00:01:58] Thank you. Thanks for having me on Mike. It’s [00:02:00] good to be here.  Mike: [00:02:01] Yeah, I, um, you know, obviously you and I have, um, met previously, uh, which is different from some guests that I have on, you know, I haven’t met them and haven’t had a personal relationship with them, but you started varsity news network, um, here in grand Rapids. Um, Which is a tech startup and, you know, your journey in that is what I really want to hear and,  Ryan: [00:02:22] and unpack, because I  Mike: [00:02:23] think it’s a, probably a familiar story for a lot of startup founders that, um, you know, go through this rush of the fundraising and then they get to a point where maybe they get burned out. And, um, by me, they don’t even know that they’re burned out and then. In the midst of that, they’re trying to be a dad. And that’s where this podcast is really meant to, to talk about as well. So I was wondering if you could just start at the beginning, tell me a little bit about, um, how varsity news network came to be  Ryan: [00:02:51] and a little bit of that story and the origin. Yeah. Um, yeah, so [00:03:00] I, I, uh, didn’t have any sort of business background. Uh, you know, I, I got my degree in creative writing and was a fine arts kid for, you know, throughout most of my life. Although I did play sports wizard, which was maybe a little bit of a contradiction. Um, and, and started, uh, you know, after school I was working at a car dealership and I was the director of e-commerce at the car dealership, which was a made up title that basically meant that they didn’t have a website. And I was the guy who was going to do that. And, uh, and you know, it was a way for me to have a title that I liked this post and. In the midst of doing that, I started, uh, a, uh, blog, which became something became like a pretty successful blog called West Michigan all-star and convinced my boss to pay for it, uh, through sponsorship. And basically instead of paying me money where he allowed me to do was to, uh, go to [00:04:00] sports, uh, go to high school sports events and write about it at work. And so at that time, I was like the. Probably the country’s only, um, gainfully employed sports writer at a car dealership. Uh, and it was, you know, it was an interesting ride that was around 2008. So then the whole market took a crap, um, in the, uh, in the, um, you know, in the auto industry. So I got a chance to see that, and that was interesting. And, and, you know, throughout that whole period of time, I was still, um, Covering sports. You know, I, uh, went back to school and, uh, got my master’s at that point. And, um, and was working at the center for entrepreneurship at grand Valley. And so it got sort of an introduction to, you know, what building things like blogs and business could be, uh, through that and kind of got introduced to the scene. And this was maybe 2000 and 2009, maybe. Um, And, uh, [00:05:00] and I remember I was, I had the idea for Vinn while I was covering high school sports for West Michigan all-star. And because I was putting me in the 10 people or so, who were working at West Michigan, all-star were putting so much time into covering sports and we had just had to cover, uh, you know, football and basketball, disproportionally to everything else, just because that’s where the interest was. We, um, You know, it, it was obvious to me that like, well, there should just be a platform where schools can do their own coverage. And that was the birth of Vienna. And I remember when I first had that idea, I held onto it. So tightly, it was going to be my bajillion dollar idea that, you know, that made my career and all this. And so I wasn’t telling anybody about it. And as a result, nothing much was happening for awhile. And, um, and I was at Ford field. Uh, covering the high school football championships around Thanksgiving for, um, you know, Thanksgiving, probably 2009, [00:06:00] um, for West Michigan all-star and I’m on roughly the 50 yard line. And this guy that I knew comes up to me, he was also covering high school sports on the East side of the state. His name was Matt Anderson and he, I knew him vaguely, and he comes up to me and he’s like, Hey, Ryan, I want to tell you about this idea. I have. And, and then he pitched me the idea for Vienna, this thing that I would hold on to so tightly. So, um, so he, and I said, how’d  Mike: [00:06:26] you react to that at first where you were kind of like. Were you excited or were you like, wait a second. Oh, shoot. I better do this now or this guy’s going to steal my idea. Ryan: [00:06:34] Yeah. The latter, the latter. Um, I found it particularly at that point in my life and still to some degree, like I re I, um, you know, if there’s news, that’s like somebody else’s going to do it quicker than I am or better or faster or whatever. I always tended to react to that with just this existential dread. Um, and, uh, and then it would be motivational right. To, you know, to do whatever. Um, I felt like I had to, but, but we started it, [00:07:00] um, you know, we went through an accelerator called momentum, which was kind of a pattern after Techstars and Y Combinator. Um, and that taught me a whole bunch of stuff. Um, The the, the way that those accelerators are successful in some of the major markets is they have as 12 week buildup from, you know, the beginning to when you’re ready to pitch, and then you go out and pitch to investors and, um, and ostensibly, then that kind of leads to your first financing round and, and on and on. And in grand Rapids at the time, there were just no investors. And so we got built up over 12 weeks and like, you know, a lot of attention in the media, all this stuff, and we get to the end and it’s just like fall off a cliff. So we fell off a cliff and every other company that went through momentum fell off a cliff, not because momentum wasn’t valuable. I think they did a great job, but there wasn’t the ecosystem at the time.  Mike: [00:07:54] You got already, and there was no club to go to your, like, your hair was done, like your makeup, everything. And there was [00:08:00] nowhere to go. There’s no love to go to the restaurant. It’s like, well, what do I do now? Great.  Ryan: [00:08:07] The way to think about it. I feel like I, I looked great for a long time after that too. But then, you know, it was just trying to find the club, um,  Mike: [00:08:15] So, yeah, it took,  Ryan: [00:08:17] I was, I was out walking the streets, trying to figure out which door I could get past the doorman for like two years, um, eaten PB and J and you know, the whole thing. And, uh, and then finally in 2012, we, um, we closed our first financing round. It was rough up until then. Um, and then, you know, it’s not like it got easier. It just kinda got different after that. Um, and we grew from, you know, between 2012 and 2015, we grew from, you know, me and Matt to 75 people across like 30 States. Um, and it was, you know, in hindsight, like we did, we could have done it a [00:09:00] hell of a lot better than we did, you know, it’s, uh, that type of growth. Uh, required more sort of intentionality around culture and, um, just the, the people side of the business than I had ever, you know, ever thought that it needed. And so, um, the culture ended up actually just really, really turning bad, you know, around 2014 through 16 or so. And, um, a lot of it was my fault. I mean, probably all of it was my fault. Um, and you know, sort of reconciling with that reconciling with the fact that like, You know, I didn’t mean to, right. I didn’t intentionally, um, create a culture where people didn’t feel valued and, and, um, you know, productive and, and like they, uh, they really valued it, but I did it and it had a lot to do with just who I was at the time. And you know, what was motivational to me and, and. Despite any of the stuff that we put on the wall, you know, it doesn’t really matter. It just matters what, you know, what the leader does. And so that was a little [00:10:00] bit of a gut check for me that, uh, you know, when we got to that point, um, Would  Mike: [00:10:05] you say that was like, when you say the culture got bad, can you expand on that a little bit? Like, what was it, what was bad about it? And what were the key things that you feel like you weren’t doing? Were you like micro-managing? Was it, did you have people that were micro-managing? Was there not a clear vision? I mean, some of those things that are the. The typical, you know, first time founder, CEO. Ryan: [00:10:27] Yeah. You know, there’s, there’s probably a lot of different things, but, um, but one thing that was sort of at the beginning, uh, or maybe at the cause of a lot of other things is, is I had this, this expectation in my head that it was really important that I was like on all the time and that I was crushing it and that I had this. Um, image that, that I felt like it was important for the company to have to the market. Um, Of that we were just crushing it, that we were doing really good work. [00:11:00] And, you know, I, I, over time and sort of reflecting on that, I realized that like, that is important in some contexts, like in raising money, you know, it’s, you’re putting on a suit, you’re putting your makeup on, you’re doing the whole thing and you’re presenting your best version of yourself to the, to the market. And in the hopes that they’ll invest in you and you get to go on a date with them or get married, um, And, and there’s, you know, all the other virtually all the other contexts that, that, uh, you, you know, in terms of business leadership, that can be really bad. That can be really toxic. And, you know, I think I, um, leaned really far into this image of myself as the hot shot tech CEO, and us as the, you know, The top company in Michigan, that’s winning. Like we want to accelerate Michigan, which was the biggest business plan competition in the world. We’re growing like 200% a year. Like all these different things saying, yeah, this is just this hot company. Yeah. And I bought that. [00:12:00] Um, and I think in buying that I did a couple of things that were, were harmful. So, um, You know, one thing that, uh, there’s this parable around, uh, the five blind men and the elephant, I think is what it’s called. And in essence, it it’s, you know, there’s five blind guys that, that find this elephant. They’re trying to figure out what in the heck it is. They’ve never seen an elephant before. And one of them is feeling the tusk and he’s like an elephant is hard and smooth and pointy. So that’s what animal we’re dealing with. Another one’s feeling the leg and he’s like, no, it feels like a tree trunk. That’s Harry. I don’t know what you’re talking about on and on around the elephant. And, um, you know, it’s a parable in that, like, nobody is, none of their perspectives are wrong. They’re all right. They’re just incomplete. And I found that business works a lot like that. Um, but as a leader, when you’re very, very certain as I was around the direction that you’re going and what there is to do you [00:13:00] think that your image of the elephants, the only image. And, uh, and it can lead you to, to at least in my experience, it led me to be a little, um, insular in terms of, you know, what feedback I took and, uh, and you know, what role I wanted the people around me to play. Can I honestly biased more towards like, do the work rather than help me build this, which was, uh, people feel that, you know, and then the other, the other dynamic that, that created was a, um, when you. When you crush it and you have this image of, of a company that’s that’s, um, you know, everybody in it is doing fantastic work all the time, which is what I really tried to create. Like, nobody really is. Nobody does it all the time, you know, everybody’s up and down. That’s just, that’s the startup journey. And so, um, But by creating this company culture that, that [00:14:00] looked like that it made it harder for everybody else inside it to perform because like innovation requires risk. And if everybody else around you is crushing it, you got to look in the mirror and you’re like, I’m not like this could really not work this new thing that I’m thinking about doing it makes it a lot harder to innovate. Just because everybody else looks like they’re doing really well. So, um, and it leads to a bunch of things like imposter syndrome and you know, all this, all this fun stuff that like eventually just blew up. Um, and it wasn’t like a, like a, like there’s this big event where everybody walked out or anything like that, like that happens in companies that never happened to me. But, um, But we just got stuck in so much politics and so much, um, you know, non forward-looking stuff that eventually we were just weren’t we’re missing numbers. It was all like, things were just going, going in the wrong [00:15:00] direction. And so at the time, and this was probably 2016, um, I got to the point where I was just really, really bummed about the whole thing and had sort of. Run out of ways of spinning it into, Hey, this is all going to be good.  Mike: [00:15:18] Ran out of ways to spin it. I like that.  Ryan: [00:15:23] And yeah, w it was an, and I think that was one of the most important things that happened to my, to, you know, the growth of the company. And then to my own growth was. Getting to the point where I just ran out of ways of, of, you know, putting lipstick on a pig and was finally just broken open enough that I was willing to deal with the fact that I had created a culture that, that didn’t work for people. Yeah. And that was the jumping off point. And then we, um, did a whole bunch of really, really hard work, um, over the next few years and, and, you know, righted the ship and got it to the point where it was. Back to like [00:16:00] 50% growth or more a year. Um, uh, and you know, and we’re doing some really cool things. Mike: [00:16:08] That’s cool. No, I, and I feel like when you have conversations like this, it’s like, I’m looking to say, talk about all your flaws, you know, which is, is sometimes is hard, but I know you write a lot about this and I love your writing because it’s geared where, when reading it, it’s, it’s geared at someone that’s in the thick of that journey that you were going through. Right. And so I’d like to, to, to stay there a little bit, because I’d like to understand. What, where did you get the notion of the person that you had to be there? You said you were, you were kind of like reading your own press, you know, you’re feeling like, Oh, you know, I ha and then I have to maintain the success, or I have to, I have to beat this person. Where do you feel like you got that? W why did you feel that that was the right, um, Methodology, if you will, because I can relate to that, [00:17:00] you know, in, in running a company. And I, and I think that sometimes it comes from, you know, seeing successful people. That’s the image that you get from them, especially in the tar, in the tech startup world. Um, but maybe as you’ve reflected upon that, tell me a little bit about how you thought about that and how you’ve helped, you know, conversations you’ve had with founders. Cause I know that’s another big part of what you’re doing now, which is. Helping founders that are right in the, in, in the thick of all of this. Ryan: [00:17:29] Well, yeah, so, so I mean, I have my own story and it’s not the same story as, as other founders. Like I think everybody has, has a unique, a unique journey, uh, as it, as it relates to this. But for a long time, I didn’t, I was swimming in the water to such a degree that I didn’t realize that I was in the water. Right. I just, I didn’t realize that I was, I was. Playing such a role that it, that I actually was, I felt like this was just what you had to do. I [00:18:00] think there’s this sense that I had that, um, you know, I had this amazing opportunity that I had created and everybody’s telling me, you know, you’re doing great and this is good. And yada, yada, meanwhile, I see all the nastiness, you know, in the, in the, um, At work for whatever the problems are. Cause it’s just, you know, you have problems, I’m running a business. That’s, that’s what it is. And the juxtaposition between those, I think gave me the idea that, um, if people found out just how little I actually knew what I was doing and how little I actually like, um, Met, you know, my perception of their expectations of me than I would lose all this opportunity. And I think it’s like, it’s a version of imposter syndrome, right. That, um, that I certainly struggled with, you know, being a first time founder and, and, uh, and launching something at the scale that we were running with. And that like, [00:19:00] obviously it’s stressful, but, but it also is really, really isolating because, um, It’s sort of this cycle of people think that you’re good. You realize that actually it’s much more complicated than that. And there’s actually lots of nastiness skeletons in the closet, any, and I had this sense that these skeletons were somehow inappropriate, which now having done it for a while, it’s like, no, it’s just how like people have skeletons. Is this like part of businesses is solving a whole bunch of problems all the time. Yeah. Um, But at the time I felt like no, that’s, these are things that I, that is like something wrong with me that I have not solved all of these other problems. And these people feel like I have, and I better protect that. Otherwise I’ll, you know, bad things will happen. And I don’t know that I never articulated what the bad things worked, but they were always very, very, very, very nasty. Yeah.  Mike: [00:19:49] And they were, they, it sounds like they became the barometer for your own kind of self image or worth or value. And you’re saying, Hey, there’s this mismatch of [00:20:00] the signals that I’m listening to over here in the business, which come to find out they’re pretty normal, but I’m receiving them as, as me being unsuccessful. And I need to be at this image of success and you’re, and the bridging between those two is just like,  Ryan: [00:20:12] that’s the conundrum, right? Yeah. And that’s, you know, I think that’s a, it’s not limited to startup founders, but it’s certainly, I think the, the journey of particularly like if you’re raising venture capital and like projecting the future as a, as a technique that can lead to that, um, you know, I think exacerbated it for me, but, but you know, that was, uh, that was a model, um, that I lived in and, and, uh, and grew a lot in like the company grew a lot for a period of time. And probably for about, um, you know, I was just in that for probably eight years. And, um, and then maybe two, two and a half years ago woke up and sort of, you know, sort of had to reconcile with the fact [00:21:00] that, Hey, I had, you know, built this company, turned it around at all. The different things had all this sort of success, but it didn’t feel successful. Like, um, I had climbed to the top of the mountain many times over and every time that I’d done it, I look back and I’m like, well, this didn’t, this wasn’t, it clearly it’s something else. Um, and then I’d recreate a new mountain and maybe two and a half years ago, or so I finally got to the point where I was like, I couldn’t even convince myself that creating another mountain would matter. Um, and that was really like, you know, uh, a disruptive thing for me because, um, so much of my life was built around climbing mountains. That to confront the fact that, you know, maybe, you know, maybe the next mountain won’t even matter any more than the, or maybe the inevitability that the next mountain won’t matter anymore than the previous ones. Um, and so, you know, over the next couple of years, uh, uh, I, I ignored [00:22:00] that for awhile, ignored that sense that it needed to something needed to change and just. You know, you’re running a company, there’s a lot of obligations, a lot of, um, people who are counting on you and commitments that you’ve made. So I wanted to, I just leaned into doing that. Um, but eventually, you know, got to the point where, um, uh, we ha we Vinn, we had hired a, a new CEO and he was sort of the perfect person for where the company needed to go. Um, but was a really hard hire for me. Because it was like intellectually very much an onboard with what he can bring to the company. But emotionally, you know, I remember signing the paperwork and it was like a punch to the gut, this identity crisis of like, who in the hell am I, if not this company now. And, uh, you know, and that was a lot of these things sort of added up and eventually got to the point where I was like, okay, I just need to take some time, uh, [00:23:00] and, and process this. And at the time I was talking with this guy, a mentor of mine named Carl Erickson, who’s local to us. Um, it’s a software founder and he, uh, He was telling me about the sabbatical that he took. And he’s like, you know, I hit a wall with my business and this was a different version than mine, but, you know, hit that wall. And, um, and I just took three months off and didn’t do anything for three months. And that just seemed like the most crazy, like horrible. Nobody would ever accept that idea ever.  Mike: [00:23:33] Good. Good for you, Carl. Yeah. It’s good for you. No way. It’s going to work for  Ryan: [00:23:37] me. No, I have, I have like, you know, all these people that are counting on me and I have to maintain all this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you know, good for you. And, uh, but he pushed me on it and he was like, you know, you know, I think like here’s the business case, why it makes sense. Um, you’re an asset and it’s your responsibility to maximize that asset. Um, [00:24:00] and you know, you’ve been busting your butt for 10 years on this, on this business. And, you know, you’ve recognized that you’re not in a space where you’re as productive as the company needs you to be, and here’s an action you can take to get there. Um, and I think he asked me like, what if it was somebody else in your company that asked you the same thing? Would you, what would you say. And I was like, well, okay, well I’d probably let them do it, but not me, you know? Um, and you  Mike: [00:24:25] said the same thing to me when we were talking about it, it was like, I didn’t, I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to accept that comment as like truth. I’m like that. I can’t, I, it just goes against what my logic in my head. So I didn’t even want to, I don’t even want to talk about it.  Ryan: [00:24:40] Yeah. But that’s a thing, you know, like I think we have, as, as, um, startup founders, we. And in the beginning or as, as, as entrepreneurs, like so much of our success is by is, is accomplishing things without like the resources and support that others have. Right. Really, you get this [00:25:00] sense of like me doing a good job is being resourceful and figuring stuff out, even without resources and without job support. And at some point that like that’s a really useful thing and at some stage, but at a certain stage of your company that becomes really limiting because there are, you know, areas where we as leaders need to grow every one of us and. And, and, you know, in order to grow with a company, you need to invest in the growth of the leader. It’s one of the most high leverage parts, but I think I was caught in a space for some time of like, well, you know, I don’t want to, I can’t justify the investment in me. I just need to be resourceful and figure it out. And the fact that I would even need to consider, like either taking a sabbatical or paying somebody to work with me or any of that is like a personal failing on my part. Because I’m not resourceful enough to just have already figured it out.  Mike: [00:25:56] Yeah. Yeah, no, I I’m tracking [00:26:00] 110% with you. Like yeah. It’s like the admission of a failure by having to leverage a resource. It’s like, that’s what it is in your mind.  Ryan: [00:26:08] Yeah. And that’s of, I don’t think about that as all for any of my employees. I’m like, You have growth goals, right? Um, that, that resources go against, but yeah, not for me. I, uh, I had a very different, very different outlook, but in any event then Carl, uh, persuaded me and I took the sabbatical. And, you know, what was a, um, kind of a low key burn in the background of like, something needs to change became like front and center? Oh, no. Um, and I remember, I, I related to it, like, I was like, um, I have the sense and an entering into the sabbatical. The, I had this sense that I’ve been running and running and running for 15 years. And I like, I feel just bad about myself when I’m not on and producing and being successful and all this. [00:27:00] And I’ve been, I feel like I’ve, I’ve been running from a sense like that, that bad feeling of what would happen if I wasn’t as successful as I am. And so my goal for the sabbatical was like, I’m just going to stop doing anything that makes me feel successful for a period of time. So that was like any work, Nope. Stopping at any production of any sort stop, uh, basketball stop. Like all of it just stopped all of those things. And the theory was, I’m going to stop running and I’m going to let it catch up. And then I’m going to stare in the face and see what happens. And, and it caught up and it was hard. And it was, um, I kind of learned about myself that I have this deep seated belief that, um, I’m not, you know, good enough for the things that I have. And I need to like constantly achieve to keep that voice at Bay and sort of introducing myself to this, you know, this, this [00:28:00] voice of mine was a. It was a hell of a thing. And it took a, you know, a lot of work to sort of get to the point where, where I could integrate that into something that was okay.  Mike: [00:28:11] So it’s interesting that you say that because, um, w. It kind of goes against the notion that a hard charging entrepreneur or CEO would have just these, this like bravado, um, that would be an eight in someone that’s in that role. But I don’t think that that’s, I think that your experience is probably very common. Right. And, and obviously I can see how I’ve experienced some of that. So I’m curious in some of the people that you’ve worked with and just conversations you’ve had with other founders that have gone through a similar journey, Would you say they share that similar mental state, if you will to say, I, you kind of don’t feel like you deserve the things you have. So you’re kind of like always on always achieving, always marching towards that. Um, tell me about [00:29:00] how, you know, conversations with other founders about that, because that’s, it’s kind of an interesting dynamic and it’s, I would perceive, and, and in my own experience, it’s like, You’re kind of saying, well, this kind of proves that maybe I’m not right for the role. Right. You know, you’re like, maybe I’m not the right person or, you know, I’m not built for this, you know, but that’s kind of part of the whole package. Right. I mean, I assume, but  Ryan: [00:29:21] I think it’s, it’s, it resonates really clearly with some founders, like, or some entrepreneurs, um, like for me, and for some that I work with you, you have this conversation, it just like hits you in the gut. Um, And it’s like the type of thing that I don’t really want to talk about, you know, but it’s kind of behind a lot of things. Um, but I think, you know, different people have different sort of, um, Typologies of their fears. Right. For me, it was a fear of not being enough, but some are, you know, fear of, um, not being like [00:30:00] of being weak. You know, I think there’s one that kind of shows up sometimes as well. And oftentimes that’s enough in a, an entrepreneur that’s like really dominating and really domineering and controlling. Oftentimes there’s a sense underneath that of like, yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m. Yeah. And my deepest core, I’m concerned that I’m not strong enough. And so I need to perform in a really strong way to convince the world that that’s the case. So, you know, you can go through a lot of life. I went through a lot of life, um, at the effect of your fears in that way. Um, and just sort of acting out, you know, automatic conditioning that says, you know, I need to achieve so that I don’t have to deal with this feeling that I have. Um, But, uh, you know, a good chunk of, of the work of leadership development in the work that I do with founders now is in introducing them to that fear. Um, and you know, becoming familiar with it to the extent that it’s part of who you are, [00:31:00] and it has pros like it has some real positives to it. There’s a reason that, that I did it is because it got me stuff, right. It helped me to succeed in material ways and other ways. So it’s not a, it’s not like it’s a bad thing, but it does exist. And it does have, you know, um, negative outcomes as well. Like it, it causes automatic sort of, um, mechanical behaviors that sometimes I don’t like, like, I don’t like feeling like crap if I’m not, you know, checking boxes. Um, I don’t like sending out an email that. I just like rushed out and I immediately regretted after sending it, but I just felt like I had to be productive and get this thing off my chest. So I had to send it. Like I look back at those types of things and I’m like, yeah, that was dumb. And I don’t want to, I don’t want that to be how I show up in the world, but in order to stop in order to like, take control over your actions, you have to integrate why. [00:32:00] You’re doing them in the first place. And oftentimes that has to do with, you know, some, some, um, some deeper stuff like this.  Mike: [00:32:06] Yeah. So you, so you hit this wall, you know, you said you slowed down so that it would hit you and then you realize this. So then walk me through the, getting to the other side of this realization and, and where, what your outlook is now, you know, in how to. What I heard you say in your story was there wasn’t time to reflect on those things and what was kind of happening. So you had it, you had this morphed, you know, view of, you know, where you felt like you should be things that are going on the company, but you never really took the time to reflect on that. Um, and then, then you did, and it was this revelation moment of it. It’s smacking you in the face, so to speak. So then walk me through like the next step, you know, what happens after that?  Ryan: [00:32:53] Yeah. Um, Well, I think my initial, my initial reaction to it was like, Oh man, I got some [00:33:00] stuff I want to address. Um, and I got some stuff I want to, you know, sort of, sort of, um, fix as it were. And, uh, and so I went back, you know, I was working at Vienna and still at the time at post sabbatical. And I, I came back with the intention of like, I’m going to come back and, you know, address all these things and write all these wrongs. And I was. You know, I, I was probably pretty obnoxious with, uh, with, uh, how much energy I had around that. And, and in coming back, it became clear pretty quickly that like the company, the culture, the, um, you know, the goals of the people, like all of it that I had had been baking in for forever, I came back and I was a different person. I wasn’t somebody that was compatible with, with, um, you know, with the company any longer. And that was a tough thing as well. And so, um, but I was, I was sort of in it by that point and not, you know, I wasn’t gonna turn back. And so I ended up leaving Vinn after only a couple [00:34:00] of months back, um, and you know, spent some time with just space. Um, Gave myself some room. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to, to take a few months at that point and just like experiment with things. Um, I had been a writer my whole life, uh, prior to starting businesses. And so I got a chance to pick that back up again. Um, I’ve been a meditator for a long time, and so I had a chance to teach, uh, or Sherpa, uh, meditation groups for business leaders, which was a really cool sort of juxtaposition between those two worlds. Um, And through that experimentation, which was really just me giving myself creative license to, you know, figure out what was in my heart and what I wanted to, to what sort of self-expression I wanted to my, the next chapter of my life to be about. Um, and then out of that came leadership development. Um, and [00:35:00] specifically this concept of the transcendent leader, which is, I think something that, um, You know, plays into the, the zeitgeists of the moment right now, in terms of how, um, you know, businesses are starting to become not only about the balance sheet, but also very much about, you know, the purpose behind them. Um, and the most successful leaders have some, you know, some, um, Characteristics in common that in a lot of ways, mirror the process of growing up into, you know, who you are as a person is, is the way that you grow up into who you are as a leader. And so, um, that topic has just been endlessly fascinating. And, and my leader, my coaching work, my writing work, a lot of it just stems out of a deep passion for, um, you know, waking up and then helping others to, to do that as  Mike: [00:35:50] well. Yeah. No, I think it’s, I think it’s very much in this I Geist and I think it’s very much needed in, in kind of the [00:36:00] ecosystem right now. And I’m not talked about enough  Ryan: [00:36:03] days. Oh my goodness.  Mike: [00:36:06] Yeah, exactly. Election day plus one, you know, here. Uh, I, yeah, exactly. Um, I wanna. I want to bring it to fatherhood a little bit. So I want you, you know, you have, I think you have two kids, right,  Ryan: [00:36:20] right. Uh, Casper and Leo, Casper’s a four year old and then Leo is a two year old boy. Okay.  Mike: [00:36:26] So you would have had them then on the tail end of kind of Vinn. Right. So I’m curious, tell me a little bit about, um, how that kind of changed your perspective to just that minor thing about becoming a father in there. Right.  Ryan: [00:36:42] It’s so much. And honestly, like, I think it was a, that probably played a good, um, my, when I had my first, uh, my first boy that probably played a significant role in kind of right setting what was important for me. Um, and, and, you know, completely burning my, [00:37:00] or like, um, completing my desire to just be successful for successful sake. Like, I think that that was one of the catalysts to get off that train, but. Um, but even before that, I remember before we had kids, um, what’s kind of interesting is, uh, is we Laura and I, my wife, we talked about having kids for probably three years or so before we eventually did. And there was always a business related reason not to, there’s always like, no, I just, you know, I just gotta close this next round or I just got to get to this next milestone or whatever. And so. In the same way that I felt like getting that milestone was going to make me happy. I also like put having kids at stake. So I was like, I want kids. And that happens too. And then, um, you know, finally it just got to the point where I was like, that’s never going to happen. We’re just going to have to do it and deal with the consequences. And in 2016, we had Casper and, um, and it was. I remember I related to the first three months as [00:38:00] Vietnam. And I was like, uh, just like, don’t die. It was really hard. He was a, he’s a really active, um, kid and reminds me a lot of myself at that age. Um, and I had all these fears around like, you know, my performance is going to suffer. Like the reason I didn’t have kids is because it would hurt my business. Um, and then I actually found that when I had Casper my first. Within short order. The real experience of it was, it was a forcing mechanism for me to level up my game because I was forced to only work 50 hours or whatever it was a week because I had all these other parental responsibilities, um, and things that I wanted to do that were not work that. You know, I had to be more effective in the, in the time that I was there. And that drove a lot of growth for me, as, in terms of like letting go and empowering, um, my staff and, you know, getting out of the day-to-day grind. And, and frankly [00:39:00] probably gave me a couple of years later, the ability to step away for two months in the company to just tank. I had had kids in that forced me to, to do that work. Mike: [00:39:12] Yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s a similar, um, sediment. I hear from a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, that it’s, there’s a step change when they have kids that they’re all, suddenly they say, Oh, I have to change the way I work. And that’s actually a, that I was holding myself back by doing some of these other things that I was forced to let go of, you know? Ryan: [00:39:31] Yeah. Well you do, you have a bunch of kids, right? So isn’t that same for you.  Mike: [00:39:35] Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, I think that, um, we had kids pretty early on in my entrepreneurial journey, which I think was probably good in the sense that I, I crafted some good habits, but I think, um, it’s a never-ending thing. Right. You know, it’s like the kids get older and then there there’s new challenges. So you’re having to adapt to that. And then it’s obviously more mental capacity that you’re having to take. So you have to find that [00:40:00] somewhere you’re, you’re only finite, you know, and, and. I think the trap that I get into and that I hear from a lot of dads is like at home, you want to throw on the Superman Cape and just go and just do everything. And you can’t, you know, or you can’t do that if you’re fully depleted. And, and one of the things I was thinking about actually, when you were talking about, um, You were talking about, uh, the, kind of the growth of the company and, um, you know, doing everything. And I was thinking about with, uh, with kids, it’s like, as your kids grow from like zero to two, you know, you have to do so much, but then you have to, you cannot scale that. Um, if you just keep doing all those things, like they have to learn those things, right? Like they have to, it’s not sustainable if you’re constantly worrying about different things and it’s like, they have to make mistakes. They have to learn how to do things or else. The house is not sustainable, you know? Yeah. There’s a really strong analogy there with business. That’s probably  [00:41:00] Ryan: [00:41:00] a reason that, that, uh, founders who are, who started company at 40 years old are old, like 40 to 50 is the, one-year the most successful in terms of starting a company. And there’s this, this idea that it’s all 20 year old kids. Um, but the, the batting percentages are significantly higher for, for people probably who have kids. I bet you there’s because of that corollary or that, that parallel that you’re describing, that probably plays a role in it. There’s a, um, there’s a book that I found super useful during this process called iron John. Um, and have you ever read this book? No, it’s, uh, it’s a, the Grimm’s fairy tale, iron John. And there’s this guy named Robert Bly. Who’s a poet that like. It’s 200 pages on the symbolism of this, of this fairy tale. And it’s, it’s quite amazing. It has all to do with like the process of growing up as a man in America, um, fathers and sons and that sort of stuff. And for me with the boys, it was, uh, it was instructive in terms of, [00:42:00] um, you know, some of the, the challenges that go with depleting yourself at work, and then also being a dad, um, What I remember, I’m sure I’m going to bastardize it. But, um, but what I took away from it was, you know, for a long time in American history, the, the dad worked at home and was out in the field and doing whatever he was doing. Right. And so, as a, as a young boy, you got to see every day, you get to see your dad. Um, out in the field doing his thing and he’s in his element. Uh, and you know, in doing that, you got to see us, you got a sense of like, this is what I’ll be when I become a man, right. Plus, or minus of course, a lot, but that’s the moment. And. Then in the, around the fifties and you know, up until maybe COVID, uh, it had gotten, you know, more and more distant, the man has gotten more and more distant from the home and his golf and really like for me, and I’m sure a lot of people spending [00:43:00] the vast majority of his, you know, creative and soulful reserves at work and you come home and like, and obviously your kids don’t see that they don’t see who you are at work and you just come home and. Like, I think I, I was terrified at once I gave, what else I got this sort of reflection is terrified of coming home and giving my kids an impression of their life as what w you know, what their life would be as a man, as just this tired guy that comes home every day and doesn’t really want to do much. And so there’s this, I try to, at my best, I try to treat, um, coming home as like the most important meeting of the day now. Just to give it the care that it deserves, because there is definitely the, the, the, it would be very easy because of how, how much effort I spend on work to come home and want that to be rest. Um, but I think I’m present more now than ever to the impact that that has on my kids. And I [00:44:00] don’t want to model that.  Mike: [00:44:01] Yeah. And that goes back to, I think that’s a really important note and I want to check out that book, we’ll link it in the show notes, but, um, It’s important to think about yourself as not, you, you can’t give out of a vacuum, right? If you can’t give out a depletion. And so, you know, the holistic view of saying, how am I ensuring my well is full and. That’s part of it. I mean, it’s all, it’s all tied together. I mean, as I was like you were saying, it’s like, if you’re not leading effectively where you can get stuff off your plate at work, you’re not gonna, you’re going to be constantly feeling like you’re running on empty and then your family gets the leftovers or, you know, um, even at home, if you’re not leading well, as the kids are growing maturing and let them do more, you’re constantly taxed by having to do all this stuff. That you can’t, you know, actually coach them and lead them effectively in the stage that they’re getting into, you know, as they grow and mature and take on more responsibility. And it’s like a never ending thing. It’s in the same with, with kids. And as [00:45:00] with building a business, everything changes by the day, the minute, you know, the year, you know, The whole dynamic is changing. You have to learn a new role, you know, how to change a diaper, to like how to teach them how to do chores to like, I mean, I’m not in the next stage yet, but it’s like, it’s all new every, you know, every year. And if your business is growing, that’s the same. And if you don’t adapt to that, you are going to fail pretty miserably, but you feel like, I mean the same thing as if you, you, you feel like you should be doing this great job. And then if you’re not, you know, kids are doing whatever it’s like. Everyone else has it together. I don’t have it together. You know what, what’s the deal. It’s like this juxtaposition of those two, those two things that causes a lot of issues. So  Ryan: [00:45:43] yeah, I think, uh, societaly we like social media and other things are kind of exacerbate that too, that, that sense that everybody else has something figured out that I don’t have figured out. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s, it can be pretty, um, impactful. [00:46:00] So. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, it’s a journey, right? It’s a, it’s a process of trying to figure out. Um, well I think for me like the, the, the approach has changed, um, I think a really productive way when I’m on my game, uh, to be less, I think a lot of these challenges STEM from trying to control outcomes. I’m trying to like steer life into a certain way of being right, trying to steer your kids into a certain way of being, trying to steer your business and do a certain, certain configuration. Um, and now even, you know, at four years old, I can look back and be like, man, I did probably more wrong than right with my kids. Um, and they’re still here and they’re still amazing. And so like, there’s, that sort of gives me some evidence, um, you know, the backup, the notion that I actually don’t have to control and drive all this stuff I can, um, support and, you know, be a [00:47:00] resource for, and create space for my kids to go on their own journeys, um, and keep them safe. So they’re not running into the street, but you know, not have to drive so much of it. And I think there’s a parallel to that in. Business growth as well. Um, you know, you can be really, really productive, really, really successful with a laser focus on just your habits right now, and completely let go of where that takes you. Um, and I think, you know, my, my experience is on a hell of a lot happier treating business like art than I am treating business. Like, you know, this problem that needs to be solved.  Mike: [00:47:40] Expand upon that a little bit, because earlier you said businesses just problems. Right. So, so they solve, right. So tell me about how to, how to treat it that way. I mean, um, I kinda got what you were saying, but expand upon that a little bit.  Ryan: [00:47:54] Yeah. Um, well, so I’m a writer, so I relate to, to [00:48:00] writing. And if you, um, you know, I stare at a blank page and. Like, it’d be really easy to look at that. Like while I need to, you know, write the next great American novel so that then I can be a novelist so that then I can make a bunch of money and, you know, kind of get the progression of things that come from that. Um, and maybe at the end of all of that, I end up with, okay, what I want to do is I want to write a story about a boat to make up something, but that’s going to get me all these things. It’s like, that’s a great way to write a story about a boat, I suppose, but it’s really fricking stressful because there’s so many of those things that, that, um, you know, that are at stake there. And I think like I find that I’m more productive and more centered and, um, and achieve better results if I just look at the blank page and just start writing and, you know, see what comes out of that. Um, [00:49:00] And if it turns out that it’s a boat, it’s like, yeah. Great. There’s that’s what was the, it was w that’s what was there to create today. Yeah. Um, so when I did the meditation groups, it wasn’t out of trying to get somewhere. It was just, yeah. I felt like the world needed meditation introduced into the business context and I felt like I could do that. So I started it. And there was no purpose for it apart from like, it was just like a, an art project. But I have been amazed at how much that art project has driven coaching business for me. Yeah. Like, you know, a year later. Um, so this it’s, it’s kind of a, you know, letting go to the, the flow that’s that wants to create something through you anyway, rather than. Kind of white knuckling on this is what the future needs to look like, which is how I live for a long time. Mike: [00:49:55] I think that’s a very insightful, and I think at first blush it’s hard to [00:50:00] grasp, um, because it seems like. When I hear that it goes against these characatures of these really successful, you know, founders, CEOs that start these huge companies, whether it’s like Steve jobs or Musk or Bezos, they’re like they see, they envision this future and they have this great vision for this, this great product,  Ryan: [00:50:19] reality distortion field, as you hear  Mike: [00:50:20] exactly. You know, and, and they, then they’re saying, well, they’re just marching towards that. So then. All that you described earlier with your journey was this notion that they have to, you have to live up to this expectation that’s presented to you. And in that you kind of killed that inner artist where you actually could thrive. Like, like you just expressed, it’s like you created this meditation group that led to this other business and it’s like, you were squashing that because you had to live up to this other. Um, just because that was the narrative that is kind of preached and propagated and everyone’s glorifying and. It’s just, it’s just kind of interesting to me. It’s like, where did these things come from? Where did [00:51:00] these notions come from? It, especially with entrepreneurs and founders, you know, they, they just want to be in the front page of, you know, Forbes or something, I  Ryan: [00:51:08] guess.  Mike: [00:51:09] Whereas  Ryan: [00:51:10] a lot of, a lot of media that tells us that that’s important. Like it’s not like we start out life with a blank page in terms of what’s important. We start out with American opinions, um, and those are different opinions. If you’re a white guy versus if you’re any other color in any other gender. Um, like you’re a part of this culture that when you, you know, when you start out, comes with a pre-described definition of success. And I think for a lot of people, myself included, you start your career trying to live up to that. And it’s like, you select from a menu. Am I going to be a doctor, a lawyer, an entrepreneur, or this or this or this? Like, you know, you have all these options. And you’re picking, right? You’re just, you’re selecting from one of these different options. And then the minute that you pick them, there’s a whole bunch of other people who are better than [00:52:00] you at that thing. And it becomes a chase, right? It’s like, okay, I’m going to go make something of myself or be all that I can be. Or there’s so many different, you know, axioms around this, this concept in America. Um, And then eventually, you know, with a lot of luck and hard work and all this stuff, maybe you become that that’s I was fortunate. I feel like I achieved what I set out to achieve a few times over, like I said, um, and it’s only at that point that I was able to realize that those weren’t my dreams to begin with. And like I had been busting my ass to become successful based on something that I didn’t really care about that much. Um, And being able to like, take that framework of like American success and move it to an object rather than a subject so that I could look at it and evaluate it and decide how I, with my one wild and precious life, how I really felt about that. Um, [00:53:00] for me, it was clear that, you know, I wanted to do something else.  Mike: [00:53:03] So what do you say to someone that is nodding their head as they’re listening to this and your story and they’re resonating with the majority of all that you said. What’s what’s the baby step. They’re like, yeah, that’s great. Maybe they’re there. They’re thinking then. Well, I can’t take a sabbatical. That’s crazy. Um, but I feel like everything Ryan is saying is totally resonating. What, what’s a baby step, you know, what, what do they do? Ryan: [00:53:33] I think that it depends on what part of it resonates. I mean, there’s probably different, different recommendations, but, um, I think that there’s a big difference between as I look back at my own journey between trying to process all this stuff on your own versus processing it with somebody else, um, or somebody else. And so, you know, I feel like that’s almost a [00:54:00] binary thing. Like either this is a secret and you’re wearing a mask as you go to work and you’re playing a role in all of these things or. You’re not in, you’re open with somebody about it. And I think like for me being open with somebody led to being open with a lot of people, um, maybe that happens for people, maybe it doesn’t, but I feel like having that resource of somebody would be at family, be it friends, be it a coach, be it as somebody that you can, um, you know, talk about the stuff like this level of like, um, discomfort. And you can, you can somebody that can be there with you to process that, um, Can lead to a lot of growth, uh, in whatever way makes sense for that person.  Mike: [00:54:44] Yeah. And I think of, you know, when you and I had coffee, like a few weeks ago and we like walked around downtown for like an hour. And I PR I probably talked like 90% of the time and you’re just kinda like, yeah, you asked me a question and I’m like, I’m like, but this, I think you prefaced it all. Bye. Will you [00:55:00] preface it all by? I read a lot of your writing that you’ve been doing. So I’m like, okay, this guy actually knows. And we knew each other and everything, but I didn’t know the depth of your story, but I knew you had enough context to at least kind of know. That, Hey, he kind of resonates with what some of the stuff I’m going through, but it was just so healthy because I feel like you don’t know, there’s not a lot of people you can talk to, you know, that’s, I think that’s kind of what you were saying. It’s kind of like, you need to talk to someone and that someone might be different based on what you resonated with or what, what part of the journey you’re on. And I got this, this image flashed in my head when you’re talking, it’s like, The further you deny that and have those conversations. You’re like digging yourself in a hole and then you, you need a longer and longer ladder to kind of get out. Right. And you’re like further isolating yourself from anyone that can,  Ryan: [00:55:52] um,  Mike: [00:55:53] kind of relate to that. Or, you know, you kind of are further going, just going further down and kind of a rabbit hole that that can be really unhealthy. [00:56:00] Yeah,  Ryan: [00:56:00] I think we, um, the more successful you are sometimes the harder that is because it reinforces that, Oh yeah, I got this. Like, I can handle this all on my own because I’ve been doing it and look at what I’ve got. Right. I look back and I’m like, I I’ve done all these things and I’ve been so successful. It doesn’t feel like it, but you know, I can look back and point to a bunch of things that say that, that, um, now I don’t need help. I can do this. And I think, I think. If you look at any other discipline, um, at a certain point of success, you, you have somebody that’s working with you, you have a, um, you know, for professional athletes, like every single professional athlete has a coach. Um, and it’s not because they’re not good at their sport is because they’re very good at their sport to the point where they’ve reached the limit of what they can do on their own and figure out how to go beyond that. And I think in leadership, um, and, and in company leadership, you know, there’s not like there’s a 10 [00:57:00] step plan, that’ll make you a good leader or anything like that. The process of becoming the best leader that you can be is becoming yourself. It’s taking off the masks, it’s being, you know, somebody who is authentic and broken and imperfect, and also committed deeply to achieving something. Like that’s the thing that. Inspires a team to follow, um, and inspires them sort of a mission to get created, but you can’t get to that point just in your own head.  Mike: [00:57:33] Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that’s a, that’s a key, uh, statement, you know, it’s. You need to be the, you need to be your full self, you know, and you, the mask you put on are the things you’re trying to do, distract you from the unique value that you bring. That’s, that’s truly authentic. And it’s kind of a counterintuitive thing because that’s perceived as weakness, you know, to some degree, um, or that you’re trying to put on [00:58:00] this, like mass to be more genuine, but.  Ryan: [00:58:04] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it’s a journey, right? I think like there’s, uh, even, even for me, um, especially for me, like there’s, you know, the, the, the parts of myself that I’m conscious of and sort of the, you know, strengths, weaknesses, fears, purpose, all that is dramatically higher than it was, but I’m still blind to a lot of stuff. Like, uh, particularly as I’ve gotten deeper into the world of racial equity, I run into blind spots all the time. Um, and, and I’m always, you know, I I’ve gotten to the point where I’m sort of grateful every time I run into one, cause it’s like, Oh, okay. Now I have another tool to, you know, to navigate these, these situations more skillfully. Um, I think leadership works like that too. And I think in the early stages, you think it’s just my personality, you know, and everybody else’s, they’re gonna have to deal with it. And once you can objectify that and start to look at [00:59:00] it, um, Dispassionately then, uh, you get more tools to do a better job.  Mike: [00:59:05] Yeah. Yeah. I think the, I mean, to sum it all up and cliche, cliche words like self-awareness right, but that’s layers to that.  Ryan: [00:59:15] Yeah. The Harvard did a study. HBR did a study that basically said, uh, business success is predicated, uh, or is built on a foundation of how closely your image of yourself matches other people’s images of you. And the closer that is, and not like your persona, like I had, but your real self, um, leads to business success. And there’s a bunch of longitudinal data that supports that. So this is also an increasing part of the zeitgeists, which is really encouraging.  Mike: [00:59:46] Exactly. Well, thanks for being around everybody. I really appreciate it. I think it was really valuable, especially for people that listen to it. I think they’ll, they’ll find a lot of value because you shared. You know, so many insightful things from your journey. So, so where can [01:00:00] people find you, right?  Ryan: [01:00:02] Yeah. Uh, so I, uh, uh, you can find me on, uh, Ryan H vaughn.com. That’s, uh, my coaching practice. It will be moving. I just formed an LLC. It’ll be newly created. It’s called, um, uh, Uh, inside out leadership. And, uh, so what’s the website and everything else is created, then I’ll be directing people there, but Ryan avon.com for now. And, um, I’m also writing a, a weekly blog for conscious startup leaders at, uh, or a weekly newsletter@secondmountainstartup.com. So they can find it there if they are, if they’re interested as well.  Mike: [01:00:35] Awesome. Yeah. And we’ll, we’ll link all that up in the show notes. So thank you so much for getting on the show.  Ryan: [01:00:41] Yeah, thanks for having me. This was fun.  Mike: [01:00:43] Good to see you.